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Discussion Topic: John W. Smith (OKST)
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on March 21, 2023
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He’s been at Oklahoma State for over 30 years.
He’s an icon in the sport, as both a competitor & coach.
A few questions…
1) How long does he remain head coach at OKST?
2) Who steps in?
3) Will he pick up commentating on the regular? (Voice of the BigXII???)
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Discussion Topic: John W. Smith (OKST)
Roe Fox added to this discussion on March 22, 2023
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IF he were to step down, Espo or Perry would seem like the first choices but I think it might go to Pendleton, if offered.
When you go to the OSU website and the headline is “Fix takes fourth, Plott takes sixth” something is wrong in Stillwater, especially with another outside the top ten team performance.
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Discussion Topic: John W. Smith (OKST)
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on March 22, 2023
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We've been commenting on other threads about the courage it takes for a wrestler to stay consistently near the top in D1.
I think the same is true for coaches. Look at Illinois. They have an excellent staff, a recent history of NCAA champs and zero AA's in 2023. Rutgers was recently a rising program heading towards top ten range. This year--zero AA's. John Smith's Cowboys were winning multiple NCAA titles in the early 2000's. Now they're scraping to get a couple guys on the stand. Doug Schwab...Kevin Dresser....Rob Koll...Tony Ersland...Chris Bono....etc...These guys are outstanding coaches but fighting to get a couple guys on the stand.
The skill it takes to consistently produce multiple AA's is extraordinary.
Should John Smith retire? Should he be asked to step down? Who are you going to get to do a better job? Answer that question first.
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Discussion Topic: John W. Smith (OKST)
Justin Hayes added to this discussion on March 22, 2023
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What Hank said.
This seems to be a real tough business, by every metric.
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Discussion Topic: John W. Smith (OKST)
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on March 22, 2023
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John Smith is a legend in the sport, and even of he wasn't, he's one of a handful of guys who have won the NCAA team title (multiple times). For those reasons, baring any massive controversy, he gets to go out on his own terms.
He's not above criticism, or even his institution quietly, behind the scenes, pushing him toward retirement. But ultimately it should be his call. He's earned that.
For the record, I would say the same thing about Coach Ryan and he doesn't have the legendary career competing or the longevity of his coaching career. That's how rare and what a big deal winning the team title is.
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Discussion Topic: John W. Smith (OKST)
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 22, 2023
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Quote from Michael Rodriguez's post:
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"John Smith is a legend in the sport, and even of he wasn't, he's one of a handful of guys who have won the NCAA team title (multiple times). For those reasons, baring any massive controversy, he gets to go out on his own terms.
He's not above criticism, or even his institution quietly, behind the scenes, pushing him toward retirement. But ultimately it should be his call. He's earned that.
For the record, I would say the same thing about Coach Ryan and he doesn't have the legendary career competing or the longevity of his coaching career. That's how rare and what a big deal winning the team title is."
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I was going to write something, but it'd be the same a what you wrote Michael, except it wouldn't be written as well.
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Discussion Topic: John W. Smith (OKST)
Jeff Reid added to this discussion on March 22, 2023
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I think Pat Popolizio would be the best Okie State guy to take the helm. People say he has a good thing at NC St., but so did Dresser at Virginia Tech. He has proven he can build a winning team no matter where he goes. Smith is a legend, no doubt, but he is old school when it comes to weight. Everyone is sucking weight in that program. Time for him to step down gracefully as HC and become director of wrestling operations or something like that. Maybe assistant AD.
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Discussion Topic: John W. Smith (OKST)
Rex Holman added to this discussion on March 22, 2023
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The head coach is responsible for overseeing a business.
The times have changed. Need an MBA instead of a Olympic title.
If the business fails or the model is obsolete, then give someone else a chance.
There has to be a benchmark in place.
Do or fail.
I don't agree with the "on his terms" argument.
Egos be damned.
I have thoroughly enjoyed seeing innovative coaches at nontraditional schools sink resources into kids and produce.
You don't get a free pass because what you did five years ago.
NDSU, SDSU, Northern Illinois, Air Force, UNCO put quality wrestlers on the mat.
Simply put. It's about the wrestlers, not the coaches legacy.
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Discussion Topic: John W. Smith (OKST)
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on March 22, 2023
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I get wanting to have a known commodity, but that’s not the way I would go. When Smith was hired, he wasn’t the next Joe Seay. He wasn’t an elder statesman with years of experience and recruiting savvy. He was fresh off his 1992 Olympic gold which capped off six years of dominance USA wrestling had never seen before.
I think you swing for the fences and try to find the next big thing rather than a guy that can manage your program to stay relevant and in the top ten. There’s an arms race and Penn State is kicking everyone’s ass. Only Iowa and Ohio State are even keeping it respectable by challenging every few years. An established head coach isn’t the going to give OSU the shot in the arm they need to be one of the teams that can truly be in contention. USA Wrestling has never been better. Names like Snyder, Burroughs, Dake, and Taylor are young and hungry and can connect with today’s athletes. One of them must want to coach?
How about this? They hire an established head coach like Popolizio and bring on Spencer Lee as lead assistant, quickly moving him to Associate Head Coach with the stated goal to hand the program over to him within five years. Then you get the best of both worlds.
I’d find a young World level guy that has a passion for coaching and I’d hand him the reins and see what happens. Anyway, that’s what I would do…but I’m wrong a lot.
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Discussion Topic: John W. Smith (OKST)
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on March 22, 2023
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I love this site. Rex and I were typing at the same time and have completely different opinions on the matter.
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Discussion Topic: John W. Smith (OKST)
Justin Hayes added to this discussion on March 22, 2023
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Quote from Michael Rodriguez's post:
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"I love this site. Rex and I were typing at the same time and have completely different opinions on the matter."
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100%.
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Discussion Topic: John W. Smith (OKST)
Rex Holman added to this discussion on March 23, 2023
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Some more thoughts.
Also, does a coach build up goodwill based on past performances and how long does that extend forward?
Does producing NCAA champions or team champions provide a mulligan against bad performance?
Is it a form of hero worship? Does this just display personal preference of respect and admiration for what was.
How do you weight the performance in context of graduation rates and other variables?
Coaches are professionals that get compensated like professionals but get a special set of rules contingent upon their relationships with people that make the decisions.
ADs or University presidents are the people that make/influence those decisions, which like any institution are based on perception/optics.
So, back to my point, the only way to grade/evaluate someone is based on metrics. Those metrics are based on perception and optics, I.e 4-5 AAs, top 4.
Those optics are most heavily weighted on performance. The other stuff like not having team members arrested for felonies, high team GPA, volunteer hours is important as well but are a much lesser weighted part of the equation.
Who is to say the coach won’t bury the program in disarray for a decade upon his exit. i.e Lloyd Carr.
I’ve seen a lot of chatter about just how good coaches are. Well, they must not be recruiting the right kids or developing them or getting them to peak at the right time if they are not performing when it counts.
I could go in a hundred different tangents from here.
That being said, even when we did a lot of things ‘wrong’ when I coached at OSU, we still had an AA every year, produced finalists (Beck and Clark), and a champ.
Those guys had to be near bullet proof in terms of offense and defense to place top 8.
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Discussion Topic: John W. Smith (OKST)
Drew Taylor added to this discussion on March 23, 2023
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Quote from Michael Rodriguez's post:
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"
How about this? They hire an established head coach like Popolizio and bring on Spencer Lee as lead assistant, quickly moving him to Associate Head Coach with the stated goal to hand the program over to him within five years. Then you get the best of both worlds.
"
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Popolizio is a top five to seven coach. This would be insulting to him.
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Discussion Topic: John W. Smith (OKST)
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on March 24, 2023
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Drew...I totally agree that it's an unrealistic scenario that would never happen, and I agree that Popolizio is a top five/seven coach. The problem is, there's not much difference between a top seven coach and a top twenty coach. Neither one are going to win the NCAA title...and if you're OSU, that's the goal, I assume.
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Discussion Topic: John W. Smith (OKST)
Jim Kessen added to this discussion on March 24, 2023
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I would think you would have to consider Casey Cunningham from PSU he has to be the best assistant coach in the business. He is in the corner of almost every PSU match at NCAA.
If you could bring him in with a young assistant like Dake or someone similar would be ideal.
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