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Discussion Topic: First period stalling calls against Rocco v Starocci
Rex Holman added to this discussion on March 27, 2024
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I know these have been discussed, but felt it deserved its' own thread.
I rewatched the match today.
I wasn't outraged by these. Starocci was smart in his approach. the first stall came with :40 left in the first. The next came at the end of the period. CS had his back to the center and made Rocco wrestle the edge for an eighth of the diameter of the circle while taking multiple shots, culminating with a shot out of bounds which drew the 2nd stall.
It feels like collegiate wrestling is being influenced by the pushout rule. Had Rocco been able to circle back in and get his back to the center it would have been a much better look.
When Rocco was pressuring CS in the third. CS was able to get his back to the center. It is largely about appearances. I don't think CS was trying to score on his shots in the first but wanted to look as the aggressor and draw the stalls.
PSU dominated the tie up game at 174, 197 and 285.
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Discussion Topic: First period stalling calls against Rocco v Starocci
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on March 27, 2024
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PSU also dominated the tie up game at 141 as Bartlett got in on two really good shots near the end of periods. In both instances, Mendez countered brilliantly.
But I understand your point re: Starocci vs Welsh.
I said it earlier in a dickish, arrogant manner. I'll repeat--PSU has really good wrestling strategies esp. when it comes to takedowns and riding.
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Discussion Topic: First period stalling calls against Rocco v Starocci
Ethan Moore added to this discussion on March 27, 2024
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I feel the same about officials in every sport:
Unless it’s egregious, allow the athletes to sort it out. 2 stall calls in the first period of a national title match is awful. Especially when no TDs were scored.
For reference I love football but the over officiating of the NFL drives me nuts. Same thing.
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Discussion Topic: First period stalling calls against Rocco v Starocci
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 27, 2024
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Ethan -- you are being to kind when you call them awful. They were far beyond that.
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Discussion Topic: First period stalling calls against Rocco v Starocci
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on March 27, 2024
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I think my feelings are close to getting hurt!! LOL
Seriously, as I wrote earlier, I have no idea what the thinking might have been. I am not the normal "fan" so I watch things differently than most of you do. BTW, in writing what I write below, I am not passing judgement on the calls and whether they were deserved or not.
That said, I can't resist bringing up a point or two. It was written "Unless it’s egregious, allow the athletes to sort it out. 2 stall calls in the first period of a national title match is awful".
First, what constitutes "egregious" and who makes that determination?
Second, one of the BIGGEST complaints we hear is that the stalling calls are different in the third period. Additionally, we hear that the calls should be the same in the first as they are in the third. Here calls were made in the first period and there is heat for that. As you can see, it is a lose/lose.
Completely unrelated, I would love to get two coaches to agree to a dual where stalling is not called for any reason. Just to see how it goes and whether it could work. No complaining or "what's the top man doing?".
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Discussion Topic: First period stalling calls against Rocco v Starocci
Ben Golden added to this discussion on March 28, 2024
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I like something about your no-stalling dual, Jim. I think the presence of a stall call is lazy rule making. It’s like “we have a problem with inactivity here and we don’t know what to do about it so we’re going to use a subjective catch all rule to goad the wrestlers into making it fun to watch.”
I’d much rather see other rules drive activity and get rid of stalling altogether. Things like a step out, etc.
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Discussion Topic: First period stalling calls against Rocco v Starocci
Rex Holman added to this discussion on March 28, 2024
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"Second, one of the BIGGEST complaints we hear is that the stalling calls are different in the third period. Additionally, we hear that the calls should be the same in the first as they are in the third. Here calls were made in the first period and there is heat for that. As you can see, it is a lose/lose."
This.
If that sequence had been in the third period roles reversed, what's the call? Fairly certain it warrants a stall.
So, does period matter? Score? position on the mat? Having back to the center? edge? reacting vs initiating?
It's unclear which is the reason for the ambiguity and subjectivity.
Also, there are some contradictions here. The wrestler has to allow his opponent to get back to center but freestyle rules award a point for the push out. Carter didn't allow Rocco to get back to center. He forced that situation and that was a good tactic as it worked. It checked enough boxes in the refs head as it resembled what usually passes for stalling.
So, to make things less subjective the above questions need answered in definitive terms. That way wrestlers know exactly what is expected of them and will wrestle accordingly. Just like the 5 second rule on top. Objective terms.
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Discussion Topic: First period stalling calls against Rocco v Starocci
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on March 28, 2024
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I really do understand all of what all of you are saying. In a perfect world, I would never have to make a single call for stalling. I would be very happy to never call it again.
I will tell you that one of the hardest call, for me, is whether a guy is being pushed OOB's or is he simply not defending? On the surface it seems like it should be easy but the reality is quite different. If I am going to make a call, I want to get it right and be able to defend the call.
In theory, the period, time, and score of the match should not matter. The truth is that everything plays a role in the calls. In the first period, no one is tired and there is not much scoring that has occurred. In the third period there is a lead to defend or one wrestler is getting tired (and it shows).
In a close match, wrestler A is leading by a point but is blocking. Does that warrant a call? Probably so. However, the same action with a 6 point lead, not as likely to make the call. Then you have to decide if the losing wrestler is making any sort of attempt to score. If he is, the call is pretty easy. If he isn't, it obviously does not matter to him.
As I watch NCAA matches, there are times when I think their stall calls are dictated only by "rules". IOW, the bottom man MUST be stalling. The drop down and side headlock are two other examples of the rules saying that there must be stalling. However, I have watched guys sprawl in the middle of the mat to avoid a TD attempt and get rung up. I always wonder what the thinking is in that situation.
There are guys who count shots. I do not. However, I do have very defined criteria in my head.
All of this is to say that stalling calls are never easy or fun. I can think of only 3 or 4 guys in my 40+ years on the mat who looked to call stalling as often as they possibly could. Not my way at all.
Thanx for listening to my ramblings.
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Discussion Topic: First period stalling calls against Rocco v Starocci
Brian Mathews added to this discussion on March 28, 2024
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Rocco lost the handfight, and thus, the match.
Starocci had no intention of risking a bad shot. He dominated the ties and controlled the mat, something Welsh is often doing himself. Starocci is exceptional tactically.
If there weren't two stall calls in the first, he would've pushed for one in the second. The way the match was going there was no way Rocco was getting to the third without getting dinged twice.
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Discussion Topic: First period stalling calls against Rocco v Starocci
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on March 28, 2024
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Quote from Brian Mathews's post:
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"Rocco lost the handfight, and thus, the match.
Starocci had no intention of risking a bad shot. He dominated the ties and controlled the mat, something Welsh is often doing himself. Starocci is exceptional tactically.
If there weren't two stall calls in the first, he would've pushed for one in the second. The way the match was going there was no way Rocco was getting to the third without getting dinged twice."
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Starocci is indeed a tactical wizard. Generally speaking that's how PSU competes esp. when it matters the most.
There was indeed no way for Welsh to win short of pulling a "foreign object" from under the turnbuckle and whacking Starocci in the knee while Tom Ryan distracted the official.
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Discussion Topic: First period stalling calls against Rocco v Starocci
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 28, 2024
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Quote from Jim Behrens's post:
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"Second, one of the BIGGEST complaints we hear is that the stalling calls are different in the third period. Additionally, we hear that the calls should be the same in the first as they are in the third. Here calls were made in the first period and there is heat for that. As you can see, it is a lose/lose."
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Stalling wasn't called the same in the third as in the first. Not even close.
Stalling was called WAY differently in the finals than it was at any other point in the season -- and any other round of the NCAA Tournament. That's a problem.
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Discussion Topic: First period stalling calls against Rocco v Starocci
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 28, 2024
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Quote from Rex Holman's post:
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""Second, one of the BIGGEST complaints we hear is that the stalling calls are different in the third period. Additionally, we hear that the calls should be the same in the first as they are in the third. Here calls were made in the first period and there is heat for that. As you can see, it is a lose/lose."
This.
If that sequence had been in the third period roles reversed, what's the call? Fairly certain it warrants a stall."
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It absolutley would have been called.
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Discussion Topic: First period stalling calls against Rocco v Starocci
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 28, 2024
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"There was indeed no way for Welsh to win short of pulling a "foreign object" from under the turnbuckle and whacking Starocci in the knee while Tom Ryan distracted the official."
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Now THIS would have been awesome!!!
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Discussion Topic: First period stalling calls against Rocco v Starocci
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on March 28, 2024
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Quote from Brady Hiatt's post:
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"
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Quote from Jim Behrens's post:
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"Second, one of the BIGGEST complaints we hear is that the stalling calls are different in the third period. Additionally, we hear that the calls should be the same in the first as they are in the third. Here calls were made in the first period and there is heat for that. As you can see, it is a lose/lose."
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Stalling wasn't called the same in the third as in the first. Not even close.
Stalling was called WAY differently in the finals than it was at any other point in the season -- and any other round of the NCAA Tournament. That's a problem."
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Brady,
I did not say, or imply, that it was called that way. Also, I am not judging the calls that were made.
I am trying to say that people constantly complain that stalling is called far more often in the 3rd than in the 1st. However, here it is called in the 1st (whether one agrees with the call is a different issue) and there are complaints about calling it in the 1st. That is all.
Now, the tough part is, what is the solution for the "problem"? How can it be fixed?
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Discussion Topic: First period stalling calls against Rocco v Starocci
Justin Hayes added to this discussion on March 28, 2024
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100' mats. : )
I assume if stalling weren't a penalty/rule that every match would digress to whoever was ahead either hanging on for dear life, turtling up, or blocking off?
Doesn't sound like much fun. (Shrug)
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