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Discussion Topic: My response from the University of Oregon
Scott Shaw added to this discussion on June 5, 2008
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After Arizona State dropped (and subsequently reinstated) the wrestling program, I decided that it would be a perfect opportunity to re-establish my correspondence with Mr. Kilkenny at the U of O. This was my email to them and their response back.
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Quote:
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"Dr. Frohnmayer and Mr. Kilkenny,
I hope that the events of the last few weeks at Arizona State have enlightened you to the passion and desire of the wrestling community. Wrestling is the oldest sport in the world and a most honorable sport at that. Wrestlers toil daily, not for million dollar locker rooms and million dollar shoe endorsements, but for the love of their sport, their teammates, and their university. The "Save Oregon Wrestling" effort has raised nearly $3 million dollars in an attempt to save this great sport at one of the premier athletic universities in the West.
All I am asking, is that you give them a number. Tell them what it will take to endow the program and save it for future Ducks to wrestle and compete at your university. I can assure you, the wrestling community (in Oregon and nationally) is very strong and supportive. The money will come if a goal is in site.
If your goal is to truly develop a top notch national athletic program, then what reason could you have for not giving them a dollar amount? To not work hand-in-hand with the Save Oregon Wrestling effort is suspect at best.
Save Oregon Wrestling!!
Scott H. Shaw
Character Education Teacher
Teays Valley Middle School
Ashville, OH"
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And their response...
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"Dear Mr. Shaw,
Thank you for your e-mail and your interest in intercollegiate wrestling. Mr. Kilkenny has asked me to respond to your message.
The recent elimination and then reinstatement of intercollegiate wrestling at Arizona State University has once again brought attention to the University of Oregon's decision to drop the sport at the conclusion of this academic year. There are several important distinctions between Arizona State's "out and back in" decisions and Oregon's decision.
Arizona State's advocates for intercollegiate wrestling were able to determine the amount needed to endow their program and raise the $8 million necessary in ten days. SaveOregonWrestling still has not reached the three million dollar mark after one year. Arizona State's eight million dollars were cash pledges to save the program and to endow it. Oregon's cash funds are closer to $650,000 while the remainder is in the form of loans and "gift-in-kind" pledges for a new facility. There is an additional, significant pledge (included in SaveOregonWrestling's figures) which will only be given if the program is re-instated.
Lack of an adequate fan base and interest in the program was one of the primary reasons for the elimination of Oregon's program. Over the course of the last six years, paid attendance at Oregon wrestling matches has been two hundred and fifty-three people. Over the course of the last two academic years, donations to Oregon wrestling have been $9,300 and $9,050, respectively.
Lack of conference affiliation was also a primary reason for dropping the program. Even with the reinstatement of Arizona State's wrestling team, there are now only three universities in the Pacific-Ten conference who sponsor wrestling; and in the case of one of those programs, the team is not fully funded. The following chart gives you an indication of where wrestling stands nationally at the collegiate level:
NCAA Division One Wrestling Programs: 87 out of 330 Division One colleges and universities
Those which field a Division I Football Team: 39 out of 119
BCS Conference Affiliation: 29 out of 66
Pac-Ten Conference: 3 out of 10
Big-Twelve Conference: 5 out of 12
Southeastern Conference: 0 out of 12
NCAA Division Two Wrestling: 43 out of 293 Division Two colleges and universities
NCAA Division Three Wrestling: 97 out of 445 Division Three colleges
Total number of NCAA colleges and universities with wrestling: 227 out of 1068 members
The decision to drop wrestling was a difficult one and has obviously impacted the lives of many. However, the facts have not changed at the University of Oregon and the decision stands.
Sincerely,
Neal Zoumboukos
Special Assistant to the Athletic Director"
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Ohio wrestling community - give me your reactions, your comments, your passion. I will be responding later today to Mr. Zoumboukos's email. I will include anything that you folks have to say (class acts please,) any questions, concerns, etc.
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Discussion Topic: My response from the University of Oregon
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on June 5, 2008
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Did Oregon ever offer a number which needed to be met? I don't believe so. Secondly...and this is important--ASU has not raised close to 8 million. What they've done is pledged to do it--which is different. The reason ASU accepted this pledge is because important alumni agreed to take responsibility for raising the money. Also, Jerry Colangelo, friend of ASU supporter Art Matori, signed on to help with the fund raising efforts. Colangelo is one of the most successful businessmen in this country and former owner of the Phoenix Suns. His signing on made a big difference.
I think the questions to be asked are: what is the amount that needs to be raised? And would it help if, as is the case with ASU, business leaders pledged to get involved?
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Discussion Topic: My response from the University of Oregon
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on June 5, 2008
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253 (on average) for the last two years???
We rail against fielding women's water polo, knowing full well that it is money-losing venture...when the wrestling program becomes a money-losing venture, what are we to say???
Here's what I have...if the people closest to the program are unwilling to support it - by attendance, money, whatever - then it probably will not, and maybe should not, continue.
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Discussion Topic: My response from the University of Oregon
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on June 5, 2008
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My point is simply that colleges should not be forced to go in debt over a sports program. They should also not have to hike their tuition to ungodly amounts to support a program.
My point is just that if sports were of no cost to the university then life would be grand. But that's not the case. It takes money. People and their work are worth it.
As for Buckeye attendance...let the Oregon incident be a lesson.
Another thing is the impact of sports in a region. I call to your example of Eugene not being Ohio. I'm down with that! Not everybody likes wrestling!!! I'm okay with that. We should not force it upon them. It's a sport! There are PLENTY of other great activities to enjoy and learn from in Oregon. Similar lessons can be learned from kayaking and cross-country running as wrestling. Guess what...I don't need a handful of Eugene-ites pushing kayaking down my throat and making tOSU pay for a team! We like wrestling (among other sports) in Ohio.
I am wrestling; do not weep for me!
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Discussion Topic: My response from the University of Oregon
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on June 5, 2008
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Scott: Last season Ohio State averaged over 2200 fans per match for their home duals. In addition, they helped Kent draw 2500 to the MAC center.
That 500 figure you mentioned applies to the pre-Ryan era. I expect Ohio State's attendance to continue it's surge.
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Discussion Topic: My response from the University of Oregon
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on June 5, 2008
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Quote from Scott Shaw's post:
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"Mark, you need to keep a few things in perspective.
One, don't let the 4,000-5,000 fans you saw at the Iowa and Michigan duals fool you. OSU only draws about 500 to most duals.
Two, without knowing exact numbers, I would struggle to think that Ohio and Cleveland State have averaged more than 300 or so over that same time period and those programs are still around and OU recently became fully funded after many years of trying. I don't think that you would say that OU or Cleveland State is not worth supporting would you?
Three, Eugene is not Columbus, Stillwater, or Iowa City. U of O does not have the tradition that Okie State and Iowa do (nobody does) that will draw fans from bigger cities like Oklahoma City, and Eugene has a population of about 150,000 (and only 3 million in the entire state) not 1.8 million as there is in Columbus. So on average, tOSU brought in (2344 in 07-08) .0014% of the population of the Columbus Metro area. U of O brought in .0016% of the Eugene, Oregon "metro area."
Four, when did we (as wrestling fans) start judging whether a program was worth saving based on what the attendance was for a dual? If we did that, then all DII and DIII programs would be lost forever and I would not have had an opportunity to wrestle in college.
I am surprised by your comments here. 90% of ALL college athletic teams are "money-losing ventures" as you put it, and we don't rail on the addition of women's water polo because it is a "money-losing venture," we rail because they are replacing one MLV with another MLV instead of taking $200,000 out of the $1.2 million dollar football coaches contract to fund said MLV."
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Hopefully, it'll be easier this way.
Point #2 (and kinda Point #4) - Is that not up to that school's AD? They don't have what we have - too bad. But I do not think it should be me, a mid-20's married man to tell them what to do with or how to run THEIR school or athletics department. As for OU and CSU...if the athletics director decides, based on the fiscal situation that something must change...something must change!!! If that means a sport gets cut, then it must be cut. If it happens to be wrestling, then okay. You cannot run an athletic department into the ground financially and expect to be in existence in 10 or 20 years! Try it with your own mortgage and let me know how it works!!!
I'll run with the home owner analogy...married with two kids...full cable, alarm system, two cars (with a third in three years when the boy turns 16), phone, internet, water, electric, etc. If you want to continue eating steaks four nights a week, you had better have a good job! What happens when gas goes from $2 to $4??? Something has to change. If it's the electricity that monitored a bit more, the readers of the house will be outraged! If it's the water, the bathers and shower takers will be in an uproar! What if you have to downsize to 2 steaks a night and cut the cable??? SOMETHING HAS TO BE DONE!!!
This is true for point #3 - Live - and in this case - run your school and athletics department within your means! If your college can't afford a football team...DON'T HAVE ONE!!! The same goes for wrestling. I don't have a problem with it. Mainly because that school will most likely end up as an academic powerhouse...and THAT is great too!!!
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Discussion Topic: My response from the University of Oregon
Scott Shaw added to this discussion on June 5, 2008
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I had a lot to say, but have decided that my time here at OhioWrestling.Net has worn out it's welcome.
- So gather up your jackets, move it to the exits. I hope you have found a friend.
- Closing time - every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end, yeah!!
Goodbye and have fun.
<thumbsup>
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Discussion Topic: My response from the University of Oregon
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on June 5, 2008
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Still welcomed by me. But, if you so choose to go, so be it.
Perhaps we'll see you during the season.
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Discussion Topic: My response from the University of Oregon
Elliot Lewis added to this discussion on June 5, 2008
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Hank:
Actually it was 2,681 home average, with a record of 5,341 against Michigan, but nobody is counting.
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Discussion Topic: My response from the University of Oregon
Dan Cosimi added to this discussion on June 5, 2008
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Scott:
What happened? Why has your time come to an end? I think what you did for Oregon wrestling was great.
Here's my take on the Oregon situation:
1. Hank is absolutely correct about ASU's supporters committing for the 8 million rather than having it in cash.
2. UO has major D1 athletic department. Their job is to know how much things cost and it is their job to give SOW a goal number. The fact that they haven't is ridiculous.
3. I believe Scott received a "form letter" instead of a personal response.
4. The "special" assistant threw around current figures of college wrestling teams. That's short-sighted. Add in figures of pre- Title 9 days and, probably more importantly, figures of high school wrestling, and you'll be painting a much different picture.
5. I get it that UO needs to make money. I wouldn't dispute that. But instead of bending over backward to help their wrestling program, they've bent over backward (they even had ESPN ban the Save Oregon Wrestling commercial!!!) to kill it. Fortunately it hasn't died yet.
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Discussion Topic: My response from the University of Oregon
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on June 5, 2008
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Scott: I agree with DC. Why would you not continue to post? Your comments are wise, valuable and appreciated. I had looked forward to hearing what you said in response to Oregon's letter. I hope you will still share that info--either privately or publicly.
Also, I loved how you used to sign your emails "Former Has-Been". Shows a great sense of humor.
Hank
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Discussion Topic: My response from the University of Oregon
Pat Costilow added to this discussion on June 5, 2008
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The one thing that stuck out most to me in the response email was the fact that he chose to include that no SEC schools field wrestling teams. How is that relevant to the University of Oregon? Or, for that matter, the number of BCS teams that field wrestling. It seems like football is the golden standard here. Hmm.... maybe I'm onto something, maybe that Killkenny wants to build a football power, and is willing to do whatever it takes to keep Phil Knight happy and forking over the dough, including eliminating teams that aren't profiting.
If Knight really cared about the entire University, not just the football and basketball teams, he would pitch in a few bucks the the save the wrestling team, after all, it wouldn't take much in comparison to the 100 million plus that he spent on the new basketball arena.
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Discussion Topic: My response from the University of Oregon
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on June 5, 2008
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I want UO wrestling to be re-instated...BUT, for Pete's sake, somebody buy their football team some new uniforms!!!
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Discussion Topic: My response from the University of Oregon
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on June 6, 2008
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Quote from Mark Niemann's post:
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"I want UO wrestling to be re-instated...BUT, for Pete's sake, somebody buy their football team some new uniforms!!!"
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Mark: How about cutting their football team so the school can afford everything else? That would certainly draw attention to the ridiculous nature of Big School athletics.
What's going on at Oregon is sick. An unqualified AD gets installed by an ultra wealthy alum who mandates he bring in baseball. This sets up a Title 9 conflict so wrestling gets cut.
ASU brings back wrestling as long as it promises to be self sufficient.
If college athletics needed to be self sufficient, most schools would have no sports. How many football programs make money? Most lose.
I don't want to see any sport cut but wrestling remains the 6th most popular hs boys sport in the country yet the collegiate opportunities keep disappearing. College athletics either exist to serve needs/provide opportunities or to make money. It can't be both. And if it's all about money, then let's see a level playing field. Remember, ASU has twelve women's sports and none of them are in the black. Why aren't they held to the same standard of profitability?
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Discussion Topic: My response from the University of Oregon
Joe Boardwine added to this discussion on June 6, 2008
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My thoughts after reading Oregon's response to the letter are:
1) Of the people who really, truly care about wrestling at the University of Oregon - none of them have the financial means or political clout that Colangelo does at ASU.
2) U of Oregon administration doesn't want wrestling. It's not in their business plan. Pat Costilow wisely pointed out their repeated references to BCS and SEC schools as the model.
3) Only an extremely prominent business group or highly powerful alumni group with deep pockets willing to give cash upfront could force their hand to bringing it back.
4) The situation at Arizona State was an aberration. Almost miraculous. IMO, if Art Martori doesn't have a friendship with Colangelo ..... this never happens. How many wrestling programs have relationships like this in place? Probably not many.
5) We need more people who value the sport of wrestling to go into higher education administration like college AD, developement director, College president. Nothing wrong with the PE teacher / coach model ... that's a great career and very impt too. But, you see the point.
And we need more former wrestlers to run companies and own businesses or find other ways to make a lot of money. Then, also have a willingness to share it to keep the sport alive.
So, coaches - make sure your kids are doing their school work - because this next generation will need to advance far up the ladder to have the political clout and wealth to keep our sport at the college level from dying.
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