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Discussion Topic: Should Lance Palmer redshirt next season?
Ken Ramsey Sr. added to this discussion on January 21, 2008
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Ohio wrestlers and especially some of the good ones who have attended Ohio State seem to think that they must cut weight to win, and I think it should have been the opposite (Build up, not down.) Ohio State has always looked like they are out of shape against Iowa and always will until they quit cutting so much weight. With weigh-ins so close to wrestling, in duals, there is no time for recovery. I think that if you would go back and check Iowa wrestler's records from past years you will not find many of them with 45-55 matches in a season. The coaches are very good at scouting their opponents and adjusting the line-up so that wrestlers get periodic rest during the season and still make their line-up strong enough to win duals. This also leaves them fresher at seasons end when they really need to be fresh for the B10s and NCAAs.
Think about starting in the fall, training into March (Sometimes 2-3X per day.), cutting weight for 45-55 matches and then in 3 weeks at the end of the season making drastic weight cuts as needed for the B10s and NCAAs. No way you can be on all the time.
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Discussion Topic: Should Lance Palmer redshirt next season?
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on January 21, 2008
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Ken: I agree completely.
I think alot of cutting happens so that guys can make the lineup. Throw in the pressure on scholarship wrestlers (those receiving a lot of money) to perform, and you can see why these cuts take place.
The key, I think, is to recruit/develop talent well enough so the best guys at the weight are those that belong there.
In fairness to Coach Ryan, he inherited a squad with Jaggers, Palmer, and Johnsone--arguably all 149's and none past their soph year. He also had a mess develop on him at 174 due to the transfers of Patrovich and Mueller plus the injury to Maurer. And who knew Enright would no longer be able to make 133? I'd like to think that in the future, esp. in light of how J.D. has performed up a weight class, that the Bucks will try to avoid having guys make huge cuts.
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Discussion Topic: Should Lance Palmer redshirt next season?
Brian Nicola added to this discussion on January 22, 2008
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OK, how many guys are cutting big weight, really, on this team.
133, 141, probably 149 and 174
125 might be.
157 weighs naturally 170 (bulked)
165 was a 160 last year but could have gone 152
184, well, he once claimed to eat a dozen donuts in one sitting
197 was a 189 last year.
285 ate an entire sub during Flowrestling interview
So, we are talking about 3-4 guys, not the whole team. It can't possibly be what it was in the early 1990's. I wrestled at a not-very-good D1 school and I cut my ass off. I can only imagine what occurred at B10 schools.
There is no way guys could do that now and wrestle an hour later. I couldn't have walked across the room to escape a burning building an hour after weigh-ins. So, what kind of weight are we talking here? I am not discounting their weight, just trying to get a baseline.
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Discussion Topic: Should Lance Palmer redshirt next season?
Roe Fox added to this discussion on January 22, 2008
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Brian: I agree with your observations except 149. At his height, though big, I have not heard he has a big cut. Having said that, you highlight what has been said: the weights with the big cuts aren't performing to their perceived capabilities, including 125.
Just looking at the guys cutting, you can tell there is nothing left on them. The "healthy" looking guys (Palmer, Sponseller, Pucillo, and Bergman) are perfomong well. Clearly Jaggers and Hump have the same, if not more, talent.
To me it seems Ryan is trying to get the best wrestlers in the line-up regardless of the weight issue. I don't think they are cutting because philosophically they think it makes them better wrestlers. I think they are doing it because it makes them a better team.
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Discussion Topic: Should Lance Palmer redshirt next season?
Ken Ramsey Sr. added to this discussion on January 23, 2008
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With the glut of wrestlers at 133-157# and most of the wrestlers having already used their redshirt, it looks like Palmer may have to redshirt by default.
Would that make him a 24 year old senior? If he would be, that would be a great advantage for Ohio State.
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Discussion Topic: Should Lance Palmer redshirt next season?
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on January 24, 2008
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Ken:
I've outlined reasons why I think it's a good idea. But why would Palmer "have to?"
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Discussion Topic: Should Lance Palmer redshirt next season?
Dan Ransick added to this discussion on January 24, 2008
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I think Humphrey is a more effective wrestler at 141 than Jaggers would be at 149. Jaggers would be a small 149 and I don't know how his body could hold up to a full year at that weight. The last time he tried he got hurt.
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Discussion Topic: Should Lance Palmer redshirt next season?
Ken Ramsey Sr. added to this discussion on January 24, 2008
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"Ken:
I've outlined reasons why I think it's a good idea. But why would Palmer "have to?""
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Hank:
Palmer will do as he chooses, but I think he is the only one left with a redshirt, so if they don't want to lose a competition year for one of the three (I believe it will be tough for the other two to make 133 & 141 again.) that could be their only option.
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Discussion Topic: Should Lance Palmer redshirt next season?
Ken Ramsey Sr. added to this discussion on January 24, 2008
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Quote from Dan Ransick's post:
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"I think Humphrey is a more effective wrestler at 141 than Jaggers would be at 149. Jaggers would be a small 149 and I don't know how his body could hold up to a full year at that weight. The last time he tried he got hurt."
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Dan:
I think it is much more likely for Jaggers to get hurt at 141, where he is cutting weight and less likely to be as strong and healthy. Jaggers has proven he is competitive at either weight.
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Discussion Topic: Should Lance Palmer redshirt next season?
Dan Cosimi added to this discussion on January 24, 2008
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J got injured at 141 (elbow) and at 149 (knee), but his weight had nothing to do with the injury. I think the more muscle he has, the better that knee will be, so going up to 149 would help it. I don't think he'd be too small at 149. Remember he handed NCAA champ Gregor Gillespie his first loss ever and twice went to the wire with NCAA champ Dustin Schlatter.
Lance, of course, does not have to redshirt. Is it what's best for the team? I think so, but I'm not sure. It's what's best for Humphrey and Jaggers for sure, but is it what's best for Collin Palmer who seems to be on a course to be 149 in college? Hmm. This, among other things, will make it a very interesting decision.
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Discussion Topic: Should Lance Palmer redshirt next season?
Cliff Cahill added to this discussion on January 24, 2008
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needs to be a general rule - no red shirting (injury red shirt not part of this discussion) - if you are going to get to the top you must have best 10 of roster in lineup (they need not wrestle every match but they are available) - if someone needs a red shirt go to the next recruit - a red shirt on the side lines is saving for what and it is blocking the next good recruit and it is taking limit dollars betting on the come - no red shirting must become a rule to get to the top
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Discussion Topic: Should Lance Palmer redshirt next season?
Ken Ramsey Sr. added to this discussion on January 24, 2008
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Quote from Cliff Cahill's post:
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"needs to be a general rule - no redshirting (injury redshirt not part of this discussion) - if you are going to get to the top you must have best 10 of roster in lineup (they need not wrestle every match but they are available) - if someone needs a red shirt go to the next recruit - a red shirt on the side lines is saving for what and it is blocking the next good recruit and it is taking limit dollars betting on the come - no red shirting must become a rule to get to the top"
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Cliff:
When my son went to college I was completely against redshirting and looking back I think it hurt him (not redshirting). As an 18 year old freshman, wrestling 23 and sometimes 24 year old seniors, you are at a big disadvantage. After five years of college coaching and competing at the college level, seniors know every technique to use against younger more physical wrestlers. They know how to shut down the offensive attack and beat the freshman on the mat where most freshman are weak. It is not that they are not good on the mat, its just that mat wrestling in college is at a different level. In HS most of the really good kids seldom get into the second and third periods to work on their mat skills and when they do the competition is nothing like they are going to see in college.
It is not that Kenny didn't compete well, he beat the defending B10 Champ at the B10s finishing 2nd and finished top 12 at NCAAs, but I will always wonder what would have happened if he had redshirted as a freshman. If anyone going into college would ask me about redshirting, I would advise that unless you are a 19 or 20 year old freshman you should probably redshirt no matter how good you think you are.
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Discussion Topic: Should Lance Palmer redshirt next season?
Cliff Cahill added to this discussion on January 25, 2008
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No doubt it would help anyone to wait a year.
I thought they had a grayshirt thing they can now use for the situation where an athlete needs another year. Then why could the individual just not start college until a year later. I understand the redshirt at a personal level. Also the 5 years matches the current usual time to complete your BS.
But I was stating a team view where to have the very best 10 going all of the time year after year it does not allow for redshirting in the since that redshirt is getting money. This is based on the best will demand the most to come creating limited money. I think Kenny's class was one of the best in history of Buckeye wrestling. Could be they always had their best 10 on the mat each week. This is the team prospective. Now could Kenny have been an NCAA champion with another year - probably but then someone would be wrestling for Kenny getting beat most of the time.
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Discussion Topic: Should Lance Palmer redshirt next season?
Cliff Cahill added to this discussion on January 25, 2008
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I just thought of a discussion I had with our camera person who had two multiple state champs who visited Division I programs. He tells of one coach telling him he redshirts every freshman. The coach said a young man coming to college has a lot of things to get right the first year. Now this was not one of the top 3 your list. I suppose you could have 4-3-3, so, jr, sr strategy getting 3 freshmen every year with each getting 1/13. This assumes you lose one, i.e. injury, grades, marriage, etc going from so to jr. Would 1/13 be enough to get 4x state champs to come? I guess that is the real question. Ohio State did some funky stuff with money last year and this but I see that as exception allowed with new guy on the block that will not be able to continue if you are going to maintain a class with same profile as this one.
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Discussion Topic: Should Lance Palmer redshirt next season?
Ken Ramsey Sr. added to this discussion on January 25, 2008
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Cliff:
Great point you make about the 1/13 scholarship and the reality of maintaining the quality of recruits. Ryan has done a great job selling the recruits into his plan, but I can speak from a 4Xer being recruited perspective that if that was the case in our family's choice we would not have chosen Ohio State. Getting a wrestler to the point of being a 4X champ cost a huge amount of money and to only gain a 1/13 ride for all of that work and cost expended would seem to be an insult to the hard work the wrestler had done. Kenny chose Ohio State mainly because of Russ Hellickson and Jim Jordan and their offer of a full scholarship, but if the full scholarship had not been offered, many other schools had offered full rides and the choice would have leaned more to one of those schools. Schools like Iowa, Minnesota and Oklahoma State may be able to do that because of their history, but few others can.
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