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Discussion Topic: 4 stall calls in 35 seconds
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on March 14, 2022
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Quote from Brady Hiatt's post:
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"
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Quote from Jim Behrens's post:
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"
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Quote from Brady Hiatt's post:
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"https://twitter.com/_zmattin02_/status/1503410944843689994?s=21
Jim, take a look at this call. Perfect example of how stalling is called differently (and IMHO very poorly in this instance) at the end of a match."
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I assume that the call was on green?
How do we know it was called "differently"? Was it called earlier at all? Just asking as I have no idea.
Let me ask what green did? He backed up, dove the ankle, and was not going to let go for anything. If you have a call to burn, go for it. If you don't, that is poor strategy.
IYO, should there have been no call? Based on what?
Stalling should be called at any time it is recognized. The time, the period, the score, the wrestler should not matter at all. I understand that you might not (and probably don't) believe that but it is NOT a call we want to make."
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It may not be a call YOU want to make.
How is this called differently?? Really?? When is last time you have seen a stall call on a guy who shoots in and holds on without moving up was not letting go for anything in the 1st or 2nd period. Yeah, me neither. Is it impossible for you to say, yeah, that’s a bad call."
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It might not be a call I WANT to make but I would make it in a heart beat.
If his head is being held, the first time would likely be a stalemate.
If he just holding on, it would never be a problem to make the call.
Can't address what you get to see.
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Discussion Topic: 4 stall calls in 35 seconds
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on March 14, 2022
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.[/quote]
LOL on Spencer Lee comment. Or when guy has double boots in, is arching bottom man’s hips off mat and ties up wrists — and bottom is stalling.
College riding — when you get a point for well, riding, is a little different. Under those rules, I don’t think it should be called if you have less than a minute of RT.
Third period is called different. Backing occurs often in 1st two periods and backer isn’t called as often or as quickly as in the third. Same action, different call. Your words said what I believe is the reason, it’s in officials mind they are “trying to camp on a lead” as opposed to a guy backing trying to keep score low in 1st two periods.
I’d honestly enjoy sitting at a state tournament and watching matches and discussing this. I believe it would be beneficial to hear an officials thoughts on all matches. I have reached out to many I know to comment on these two matches. Perspectives have varied — but helps me to know the mind of an official better.[/quote]
Your example is a good one too. I just don't understand calling the bottom man when there is really nothing he can do.
I understand riding time (although I don't care for it) but your idea is fine. Once they get past 1 minute of RT, all bets are off. Stalling becomes stalling.
Every situation is unique. When I step on the mat, I have absolutely no idea which way this match might go. You just hope nothing "weird" happens.
I would enjoy any discussion. My son (who is MUCH smarter than his dad) and I debate issues all the time. I enjoy his perspective as a coach and try to remember points he made when I am on the mat.
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Discussion Topic: 4 stall calls in 35 seconds
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on March 14, 2022
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BTW, just so there is no misunderstanding, I really do enjoy the banter on this web site. Using our real names is great.
We can disagree and still be agreeable and still love the sport.
Jim
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Discussion Topic: 4 stall calls in 35 seconds
Bruce Andrews added to this discussion on March 14, 2022
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Jim,
When a high school wrestler is called for stalling is there anything said to the wrestler indicating they have been called? Is "stalling, one point" yelled in the direction of the offending wrestler? I was wondering whether some wrestlers might not be aware that they have been penalized. Will the referee ever say to the wrestler that has been called twice for stalling "the next one will cost you two points"?
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Discussion Topic: 4 stall calls in 35 seconds
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 14, 2022
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Quote from Jim Behrens's post:
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"BTW, just so there is no misunderstanding, I really do enjoy the banter on this web site. Using our real names is great.
We can disagree and still be agreeable and still love the sport.
Jim"
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Agree -- even banter with an official. LOL
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Discussion Topic: 4 stall calls in 35 seconds
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on March 14, 2022
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Quote from Bruce Andrews's post:
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"Jim,
When a high school wrestler is called for stalling is there anything said to the wrestler indicating they have been called? Is "stalling, one point" yelled in the direction of the offending wrestler? I was wondering whether some wrestlers might not be aware that they have been penalized. Will the referee ever say to the wrestler that has been called twice for stalling "the next one will cost you two points"?"
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I can only speak for myself and the guys I have trained so here goes.
I am pretty loud on the mat and yell whatever the call is when I make it.
Additionally as we are getting set to start the second and third periods, I tell each wrestler if they have any infractions. For example I might say "green, remember you have been warned (or penalized) for stalling and red, you have a false start". Again I am pretty loud so I do not look for acknowledgement.
Additionally in situations like the offensive man being entirely in the back of the defensive man, we stop that (the first time) as PD. I point at the offending wrestler and tell them that the stoppage "is on you". If it happens again, with the same guy causing the stoppage, it is stalling. I want them to know AND I want the coach to be aware. It keeps there from being problems.
If we get to the point where two points is awarded with the next infraction, I make very sure the wrestler is aware. No surprises!!
Hopefully that helps a bit.
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Discussion Topic: 4 stall calls in 35 seconds
Rex Holman added to this discussion on March 14, 2022
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4 stall calls in the third period. No.
From my perspective, 1st and 3rd were because the referee felt pressure to interject himself in the match. Simply, Younger wasn't creating enough action to warrant a call for me.
I've watched it a couple times now and it feels like the referee puts the leading wrestler under a microscope of activity, which seems to be a common practice. To me, the guy trailing needs to pick up the pace and create a lot of action. Not just a collar wrist tie and shot on the edge. There is no risk in that. Why should the leading wrestler be forced to take all the risk.
Anyway, Gessler should have held his ground at the end. That was on him.
Brady makes the most important point and that is stalling should be called uniformly throughout the match and this doesn't happen because the lead wrestler is penalized for leading.
and that's dumb.
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Discussion Topic: 4 stall calls in 35 seconds
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on March 15, 2022
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I will start off by saying that I have the utmost respect for Rex and all he has accomplished in the sport. I am 100% sure that he has forgotten more about wrestling than I will ever know.
In the interest of being open, the official who had this match called me yesterday and we discussed what I thought was done correctly and what was done poorly. From a mechanics standpoint, the end of this match was a mess. He knew it.
That said, Rex's view on this and mine are very different. I just watched the match again I agree with every one of the stalling calls. The first three were all on backing to and playing the edge. The current rules specifically address this and it is defined as stalling. The last one was a no-brainer and I told him that I was stunned that he didn't call it right away. IMO, he could have hit several others and, to Brady's point, in the first period..
You wrote "To me, the guy trailing needs to pick up the pace and create a lot of action. Not just a collar wrist tie and shot on the edge.". I didn't see it that way at all. I saw the kid is red doing all the chasing and the kid in green backing to the edge where he felt safe.
I can say, positively, that he never felt pressure to make any calls. I can think of only 2 officials who made calls like this to draw attention and they are both retired. This official is not like that at all. He is so low key that it makes me crazy.
Every single official walks out to do his finals match and hopes for a smooth match. In this world of video everywhere, no one wants to become a Youtube or Flo viral sensation. That only seems to happen when people think we got it wrong, never when we call a spectacular match (because perfection is expected).
As the only official on here (as far as I know), I don't expect my view to be popular but I want to give some perspective from the dark side.
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Discussion Topic: 4 stall calls in 35 seconds
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 15, 2022
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Quote from Jim Behrens's post:
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"The last one was a no-brainer and I told him that I was stunned that he didn't call it right away. IMO, he could have hit several others and, to Brady's point, in the first period..
As the only official on here (as far as I know), I don't expect my view to be popular but I want to give some perspective from the dark side."
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Jim, appreciate you sharing the view of the dark side. Lol
The part I quoted is my biggest issue with officiating in general - in any sport — consistency. When a match / game is officiated one way for the 1st 80% of the contest, it should be officiated that way for the remaining 20%. But we see it happen in every sport. When stalling wasn’t called in the first period for this action, why should it be called in the third? What changed — other than the period?
Super Bowl had this issue — the refs let's guys play physical all game then last three minutes if the defender touched the offensive player, laundry was flying. This is beyond frustrating for players and coaches alike.
Correct also on the end. When he didn’t call it immediately - it shouldn’t have been called. The optics are horrendous (video shows him making the “shake hands before I raise the winner’s arm” immediately after time expired. IMO, this is a major mistake as it shows he was talked into the call - instead of calling what he saw.
And coaches talk often about which officials we’d love to see take the mat for our most important matches. The ones I talk about and I ask them to name are the ones that stay in good position and are consistent from opening whistle to final whistle.
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Discussion Topic: 4 stall calls in 35 seconds
Jack Muni added to this discussion on March 15, 2022
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I just wish that ref would have been working the Amine-Kharchla match...
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Discussion Topic: 4 stall calls in 35 seconds
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on March 15, 2022
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Quote from Jack Muni's post:
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"I just wish that ref would have been working the Amine-Kharchla match..."
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I did not see the match but I assume stalling was not called when you felt it should be?
Call stalling except in certain clearly defined situations in a college match??
LOL, never going to happen. Watch this weekend.
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Discussion Topic: 4 stall calls in 35 seconds
Rick Wasmer added to this discussion on March 15, 2022
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Quote from Jack Muni's post:
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"I just wish that ref would have been working the Amine-Kharchla match..."
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I agree 100%. Buit also, Kharchla has to go get it!
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Discussion Topic: 4 stall calls in 35 seconds
Dan Strope added to this discussion on March 15, 2022
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"Simply, Younger wasn't creating enough action to warrant a call for me.
I've watched it a couple times now and it feels like the referee puts the leading wrestler under a microscope of activity, which seems to be a common practice. To me, the guy trailing needs to pick up the pace and create a lot of action. Not just a collar wrist tie and shot on the edge. There is no risk in that. Why should the leading wrestler be forced to take all the risk".
Agree. I saw no attempts to take his opponent out of position. Push, shove and pray for the call that he eventually received. No level changes, no misdirection and no serious attempts to take his opponent out of position.
I watched a lot of the PA states and can't remember 5 total stalling calls on the matches I watched. Totally different mindset from the officials, wrestlers and coaches in the PIAA in regards to stalling and strategies.
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Discussion Topic: 4 stall calls in 35 seconds
Justin Hayes added to this discussion on March 15, 2022
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Would someone be willing to post the match (or the identifiers of the wrestlers for a youtube search)?
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Discussion Topic: 4 stall calls in 35 seconds
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on March 15, 2022
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Quote from Justin Hayes's post:
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"Would someone be willing to post the match (or the identifiers of the wrestlers for a youtube search)?"
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The earlier version was on Flo but this was just posted today.
It is from the other side from what we all saw first.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XyJzuiEOk4
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