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Discussion Topic: Coaching fumbles at 2022 NCAAs
Jim Kessen added to this discussion on March 21, 2022
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Agree Freddy but couldn’t tell from my iPad while watching but we’re coach’s calling for Ethan to kick him or ride? Ethan always seems to find himself in matches like this.
I hope he comes back.
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Discussion Topic: Coaching fumbles at 2022 NCAAs
Freddy Carr added to this discussion on March 21, 2022
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Quote from Jim Kessen's post:
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"Agree Freddy but couldn’t tell from my iPad while watching but we’re coach’s calling for Ethan to kick him or ride? Ethan always seems to find himself in matches like this.
I hope he comes back."
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Good point. I was in the arena but not close enough to mat 4 to tell. Maybe it wasn’t a coaching fumble but a wrestling fumble. I also hope Ethan comes back!
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Discussion Topic: Coaching fumbles at 2022 NCAAs
Jim Kessen added to this discussion on March 21, 2022
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Took this from Iowa forum and got me thinking this is similar to Buckeyes.
Also, I know how tight nit the Hawks are, but they need some diversity on their staff - which will probably take care of my first suggestion. One of the reasons it is Iowa agains the world, is because they have segregated themselves from the world. Look at PSU's staff. Cael and Cody(ISU) Cunningham (CMU). Now he is mentioning Kennedy (Illinois). Michigan's staff - Bormet (Michigan) KJ (all over), Bolyard (Eastern Michigan) ASU's staff Zeke Jones (ASU) Molinaro (PSU) Pritts (Mizzou and NC state). Oregon state's staff Pendleton Okie State, Martinez (Illinois), Engle (Missouri Valley NAIA school) Cornell's staff Grey (Cornell) Russell (Mich), Vinson (NC state)
I don’t know who you would target and what coach would go or if you could add a volunteer grad assistant who could add something new.
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Discussion Topic: Coaching fumbles at 2022 NCAAs
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on March 21, 2022
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Quote from Drew Taylor's post:
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"I haven't fully fleshed this out in my mind, so I might not even agree with what I'm about to say. But what about eliminating the initial warning for stalling and jumping straight to awarding one point?
Too often officials wait until the final 15 seconds to give an obligatory stall warning as the wrestler in the lead backpedals and avoids contact. It's meaningless. The fear of giving up a point would discourage such behavior.
I might be in the minority, but I appreciate riding time and the strategies it can bring to a match. A good ride can be a thing of beauty and adds suspense as the clock ticks toward one minute. Some like to bag on Penn State wrestlers for accumulating riding time by hooking the ankle, but there's no denying how hard they are working to stay on top. There is constant movement to cover the movement of their opponent. Cross wrist rides. Mat returns. Running the opponent out of bounds. If it was easy, every team would do it. It's artful.
Lastly, I'll say way too much is made of stalling. It has become the mating call of Iowa fans. Most officials are very careful to not let stalling points dictate the outcome of a match, which is appropriate. Let action and not inaction dictate the outcome. So I guess I just contradicted my earlier point. I'll shut up."
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Drew--great post. I agree that adding stalling criteria is not an answer. Too many stalling calls is a poor idea and I withdraw my suggestion. While I understand your point about riding and strategy, I think that riding time causes more trouble than it's worth. But I respect your viewpoint and agree that there's an art to riding and PSU has mastered it.
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Discussion Topic: Coaching fumbles at 2022 NCAAs
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on March 21, 2022
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Quote from Drew Taylor's post:
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"But what about eliminating the initial warning for stalling and jumping straight to awarding one point?
Too often officials wait until the final 15 seconds to give an obligatory stall warning as the wrestler in the lead backpedals and avoids contact. It's meaningless. The fear of giving up a point would discourage such behavior.
I might be in the minority, but I appreciate riding time and the strategies it can bring to a match. A good ride can be a thing of beauty and adds suspense as the clock ticks toward one minute. Some like to bag on Penn State wrestlers for accumulating riding time by hooking the ankle, but there's no denying how hard they are working to stay on top. There is constant movement to cover the movement of their opponent. Cross wrist rides. Mat returns. Running the opponent out of bounds. If it was easy, every team would do it. It's artful.
Lastly, I'll say way too much is made of stalling. It has become the mating call of Iowa fans. Most officials are very careful to not let stalling points dictate the outcome of a match, which is appropriate. Let action and not inaction dictate the outcome. So I guess I just contradicted my earlier point. I'll shut up."
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To your first point, it would only matter IF the official actually made the call. Do you really think they are willing to do that with the match on the line? I don't. I agree the meaningless warning with time running out is pointless but if the guy is stalling, what are they to do? If they make the call or if they ignore the call, they are going to be "wrong".
In the second paragraph, you refer to running the opponent OOB's as controlling him? Sorry but I disagree completely. The other things you mention, no problem. Purposely going OOB's is avoiding wrestling and by definition is stalling.
I also disagree that officials dictate the outcome of a match with stalling calls. It is the wrestler who is stalling who dictates that outcome. The official simply calls what he believes it is. I know there can be disagreements as to what situations are stalling but but, to your point, if it was easy anyone could call a match.
To not decide is to decide. If you don't call it when it is occurring, you are penalizing the other wrestler. I just wish it was as easy as many think it is.
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Discussion Topic: Coaching fumbles at 2022 NCAAs
Dan Strope added to this discussion on March 22, 2022
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"Honestly, the best way to solve the problem of bottom unable to escape but constantly getting to his feet is to get rid of riding time. This would free up officials to call stalling on top man if he's constantly shoving his opponent out of bounds or clinging to standing control. What we currently have going on is archaic."
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And even more archaic is the seemingly automatic choice of going down while complaining about being ridden out and giving up riding time. Head scratcher for me because guys choose down because "you have to get out to win" yet making excuses for when you can't get out.
As noted in this thread, nothing has changed in years. NCAA officials are not going to subjectively call stalling on the top man and yet you still choose down? Why? And who is at fault for your choice or lack of bottom skills?
I agree with Hank, if you choose bottom in the NCAA you will receive ZERO help from an official unless you can get to your feet nor should you. If you want to talk Ohio High School wrestling that is a totally different conversation.
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Discussion Topic: Coaching fumbles at 2022 NCAAs
Steve Lester added to this discussion on March 22, 2022
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I know I have suggested this before and been met with (appropriate) derision:
Imagine the scenarios if the bottom man, by rule, is awarded an automatic escape if he goes out of bounds. In light of that rule, what would the top man be doing? Would the strategy change?
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Discussion Topic: Coaching fumbles at 2022 NCAAs
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on March 22, 2022
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Quote from Steve Lester's post:
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"I know I have suggested this before and been met with (appropriate) derision:
Imagine the scenarios if the bottom man, by rule, is awarded an automatic escape if he goes out of bounds. In light of that rule, what would the top man be doing? Would the strategy change?"
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Lakewood Steve! Love that idea. Excellent.
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Discussion Topic: Coaching fumbles at 2022 NCAAs
Brian Mathews added to this discussion on March 22, 2022
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"
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Quote from Steve Lester's post:
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"I know I have suggested this before and been met with (appropriate) derision:
Imagine the scenarios if the bottom man, by rule, is awarded an automatic escape if he goes out of bounds. In light of that rule, what would the top man be doing? Would the strategy change?"
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Lakewood Steve! Love that idea. Excellent."
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I, too, am in favor of any rule that pares back the current stall-ride paradigm.
But if this were the rule, you'd see a lot of guys just crawling out of bounds. I don't think that would be the most entertaining wrestling either, and would quickly lead us to the conclusion that there's not even a point to being down there in the first place.
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Discussion Topic: Coaching fumbles at 2022 NCAAs
Steve Lester added to this discussion on March 22, 2022
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Quote from Brian Mathews's post:
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"
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"
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Quote from Steve Lester's post:
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"I know I have suggested this before and been met with (appropriate) derision:
Imagine the scenarios if the bottom man, by rule, is awarded an automatic escape if he goes out of bounds. In light of that rule, what would the top man be doing? Would the strategy change?"
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Lakewood Steve! Love that idea. Excellent."
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I, too, am in favor of any rule that pares back the current stall-ride paradigm.
But if this were the rule, you'd see a lot of guys just crawling out of bounds. I don't think that would be the most entertaining wrestling either, and would quickly lead us to the conclusion that there's not even a point to being down there in the first place."
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Yes. I thought of that. What would the top wrestler be doing the attempted crawl? If he tries to prevent it in certain ways, a traditional escape may come easier. Putting a man on his back works every time in preventing a crawl out. Of course there are other issues, such as TDs at the edge of the mat etc. Still would love to see it in practice for a while.
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Discussion Topic: Coaching fumbles at 2022 NCAAs
Brian Mathews added to this discussion on March 22, 2022
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Quote from Steve Lester's post:
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"
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Quote from Brian Mathews's post:
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"
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"
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Quote from Steve Lester's post:
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"I know I have suggested this before and been met with (appropriate) derision:
Imagine the scenarios if the bottom man, by rule, is awarded an automatic escape if he goes out of bounds. In light of that rule, what would the top man be doing? Would the strategy change?"
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Lakewood Steve! Love that idea. Excellent."
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I, too, am in favor of any rule that pares back the current stall-ride paradigm.
But if this were the rule, you'd see a lot of guys just crawling out of bounds. I don't think that would be the most entertaining wrestling either, and would quickly lead us to the conclusion that there's not even a point to being down there in the first place."
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Yes. I thought of that. What would the top wrestler be doing the attempted crawl? If he tries to prevent it in certain ways, a traditional escape may come easier. Putting a man on his back works every time in preventing a crawl out. Of course there are other issues, such as TDs at the edge of the mat etc. Still would love to see it in practice for a while."
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No doubt, it would force people that actually want to turn or ride to wrestle hard in the middle of the mat.
I'm just thinking, purely from an optics perspective, it would lead in practice to some very funny "crawl outs."
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Discussion Topic: Coaching fumbles at 2022 NCAAs
Sean Koran added to this discussion on March 22, 2022
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To eliminate worry about people getting easy escapes when takedowns occur at the edge of the mat, the proposed out of bounds = auto escape rule could be implemented only for rides that begin a period or on a restart - not directly from a takedown or reversal. If the bottom man is able to traverse from the center of the mat to OOB, it seems obvious that the the top man is not in control.
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Discussion Topic: Coaching fumbles at 2022 NCAAs
Don Bork added to this discussion on March 22, 2022
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Some folks seem to enjoy seeing a good ride. I guess I would ask, what constitutes a “good ride”? Is it sitting on or hooking a leg, tight waist grab an ankle for a 4 second count before moving back up, dropping to a leg once your opponent stands and then driving them OB at the 4 second count. Sorry, none of this is productive to advancing our sport or making it more appealing. I would like to see us move our sport more towards what the rest of the world does. Get rid of the riding time point. Second and third periods each wrestler starts in the bottom position. Not a choice. This gives each an opportunity to work from top to secure back points as well as from bottom to secure an escape point. But after 30 seconds, if neither has occurred, stand them up. I would do this in the first period as well after a takedown. Nothing more boring than a takedown 15 seconds into a match and then a 2:45 ride where absolutely nothing happens.
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Discussion Topic: Coaching fumbles at 2022 NCAAs
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 22, 2022
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Quote from Sean Koran's post:
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"To eliminate worry about people getting easy escapes when takedowns occur at the edge of the mat, the proposed out of bounds = auto escape rule could be implemented only for rides that begin a period or on a restart - not directly from a takedown or reversal. If the bottom man is able to traverse from the center of the mat to OOB, it seems obvious that the the top man is not in control."
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I see the "problem" when the bottom man get's to his feet and is run out of bounds not when they are on the mat and a guy granbys and goes out.
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Discussion Topic: Coaching fumbles at 2022 NCAAs
J.P. Barner added to this discussion on March 22, 2022
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I see Cael teaching his guys creative ways to crawl off the mat and to using the Mongolian toenail hold to keep opponents from crawling off. :)
Just get rid of the riding time.
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