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Discussion Topic: Ohio HS wrestling is down? Explain that to me
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on November 18, 2022
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This is such a great thread.
Jeff Streu: "Kids like pure wrestling, just like they enjoy rough-housing and tussling in the living room or in the backyard. What most kids don't like is cutting weight, overzealous dads, or crazy year round practice and competition schedules."
Outstanding. I'd add that we also run across coaches trying to show us their dck size by having the greatest 7 year olds in the state.
Dan Strope--Lots of great stuff in your post as well.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio HS wrestling is down? Explain that to me
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on November 18, 2022
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Quote from Dan Strope's post:
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3). Officiating. Two different worlds. I won't even label them...One eats the whistle, just scores the match, gives ample time to work on top and bottom and feels that a stalling call should never be given based on score. The other, loves to be heavily involved in the match, stalling calls are heavily influenced by the current score of the match and prefers influencing the match to be decided from the neutral position. I know every ref reading this part will scoff and every coach reading it will secretly agree. It is mind boggling to me hearing the coaching instruction from the corner of some of the matches. Instead of coaching their wrestler on how to improve his scoring position or how to take his opponent out of position the coaches are working the official for the stall call that they often get. Educate your wrestlers and quit relying on the stalling point in tight matches you are hurting your kid's development.
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Obviously we have a difference of opinion on this. I can not address how Pa officials call a match because I am not from Pa and I have never worked a match there.
That said, I can say that you're feeling that Ohio officials love to be "heavily involved in the match" is not correct. Speaking for myself, my sincere hope is that no one even notices me. I can not think of a single official I know who looks for stalling or really even wants to make that call.
I have often wondered what a match would look like if stalling were removed from the Rule Book? Would the coach of the wrestler who is down by a point be more or less happy that the opponent is blocking and backing or simply laying on his wrestlers back?
Rule 5-24-4a specifically states that the offensive wrestler is stalling when he/she "does not wrestle aggressively and attempts to secure a fall". Is laying parallel with your opponent wrestling aggressively? Is switching a half from side to side, with no attempt to turn, wrestling aggressively? My question to anyone, based on what you wrote is, what is "ample time"?? Give me a definition. This is a sport about creating angles and neither of those examples will make that happen.
Just because a wrestler is on top does not give them the right to lay there and fake it. If the bottom man choose to be there in the second or third period, IMO, it is his responsibility to show me something. After all, his choice told me that he thinks he is better from that position and can escape or reverse. If he isn't making that effort he might just be stalling. After all, it is MUCH easier to fake it on the bottom.
I will freely tell you that if I have a wrestler who is working to turn his opponent, whether he is successful or not, I will let it go. I have no interest in changing the course of the match. However, per the rules, he has to try something in order to score.
Not once in 40 years have I ever had the thought that a match should be decided from the neutral position. I don't care how it is won.
To your point about coaches trying to bait a call, off-hand I can only think of two coaches that try that on any sort of regular basis. Occasionally I might hear it from others but it is no where close to what you seem to think.
To not decide is to decide.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio HS wrestling is down? Explain that to me
Dan Strope added to this discussion on November 18, 2022
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[/quote]
Obviously we have a difference of opinion on this. I can not address how Pa officials call a match because I am not from Pa and I have never worked a match there.
That said, I can say that you're feeling that Ohio officials love to be "heavily involved in the match" is not correct. Speaking for myself, my sincere hope is that no one even notices me. I can not think of a single official I know who looks for stalling or really even wants to make that call.
I have often wondered what a match would look like if stalling were removed from the Rule Book? Would the coach of the wrestler who is down by a point be more or less happy that the opponent is blocking and backing or simply laying on his wrestlers back?
Rule 5-24-4a specifically states that the offensive wrestler is stalling when he/she "does not wrestle aggressively and attempts to secure a fall". Is laying parallel with your opponent wrestling aggressively? Is switching a half from side to side, with no attempt to turn, wrestling aggressively? My question to anyone, based on what you wrote is, what is "ample time"?? Give me a definition. This is a sport about creating angles and neither of those examples will make that happen.
Just because a wrestler is on top does not give them the right to lay there and fake it. If the bottom man choose to be there in the second or third period, IMO, it is his responsibility to show me something. After all, his choice told me that he thinks he is better from that position and can escape or reverse. If he isn't making that effort he might just be stalling. After all, it is MUCH easier to fake it on the bottom.
I will freely tell you that if I have a wrestler who is working to turn his opponent, whether he is successful or not, I will let it go. I have no interest in changing the course of the match. However, per the rules, he has to try something in order to score.
Not once in 40 years have I ever had the thought that a match should be decided from the neutral position. I don't care how it is won.
To your point about coaches trying to bait a call, off-hand I can only think of two coaches that try that on any sort of regular basis. Occasionally I might hear it from others but it is no where close to what you seem to think.
To not decide is to decide.[/quote]
Just some background. I wrestled and grew up in PA. I left PA for Ohio and have wrestled, coached and officiated in Ohio since the mid 80s so I have experiences in both places and I stand by my comments. Nothing personal but we will have to agree to disagree and here is my thoughts on your comments. Incidently, I am not the only person that shares this opinion of Ohio officiating. Agree or not agree but Ohio officials have a certain reputation. Just listening to out of state coaching comments after the Ironman or any prominent tournament that has a large out of state presence.
1) I like and have long been a proponent of eliminating the stall call. I think the benefits are two fold in that it would force coaches to actually coach on how to take your opponent out of position to score and it would make the officiating easier and more consistent. I do think that the boundaries should be protected and I would favor some sort of step out type rule or strongly enforcing fleeing the mat or hold type call. The current boundary call is so subjective that it is simply is not working.
2) In fairness, I should further explain "the love to be involved in a match" opinion. It is the world's worst kept secret that Ohio officials tend to look for stalling on the wrestler that is leading the match and it is exemplified in the third period. Not an opinion, that is observed FACT. I guess there is no imperial data on this but I would bet a Mr. Brisket lunch that Ohio would far outpace other states in wrestlers "cutting" their opponent in the third period for fear of the match getting tied by a stalling call or worse yet losing the match. This fear influences how the match gets actually wrestled and that is wrong.
3) What about Rule 5-24-5 ...When the defensive wrestler refuses to aggressively attempt to escapes and reversals, it is stalling? I will answer in the order that your asked:
a). Is laying parallel with your opponent wrestling aggressively? Sometimes but not all the time. It is definitely not the cut and dry call that most think. The most dominate current NCAA wrestler is Spencer Lee and he scores A TON of near fall points NEVER leaving the hip. He sits back, continues his attempt to rake the near arm until he locks the wrist and bar and "jumps" hips to score 4 near fall points never leaving parallel. He is just one of many examples of "hip riders" that score a lot of back points. Lee is interesting in the fact that the entire wrestling world knows what he is going to do and the attempt to stop it is for the bottom man to lock it their hands and put their hands as far away from their face that they can. Hardly, an attempt to escape. Who is stalling?
b) Switching half side to side. Again could be stalling but is not always cut and dry as one would think. In this scenario do you watch the action at the feet? What is going on at the actual half nelson? Who is stalling if the defensive man continually tangles the offensive man's feet to prevent advancing the half or clamps down on the half so tight that the top man no leverage to proceed?
c) Ample time? Great question and entirely subjective. IMO this is one of two major differences between the styles of officiating. I believe Ohio officials in general put the burden on the winning wrestler. We will just have to agree to disagree on this point. It happens whether intentional or implied it happens. Again, PA tends to swallow their whistles more than their counter parts in this regard. In others words "their ample time' internal clock ticks A LOT longer. It is rather interesting that the PA kids have a national reputation as being "tough on the mat" and Ohio is "good on their feet". I really believe the different styles of officiating foster these reputations.
d) "If the bottom man choose to be there in the second or third period, IMO, it is his responsibility to show me something. After all, his choice told me that he thinks he is better from that position and can escape or reverse." It is this thought process toward stalling that leads credence to my argument that Ohio officials "love to be part of the match" So how do differentiate your defensive man stall call between him choosing down as opposed to him getting taken takedown in the first period? In your eyes, does he have to show less burden of proof? I mean he didn't choose to be there.
e) The wrestling world would be a much better place if every official would realize that every call rewards one wrestler and at the same time punishes another. In general terms, I think one state does and one state doesn't. Purely personal opinion. Want to call the offensive wrestler for stalling? Go ahead but first consider has the bottom man attempted to create back pressure, slide his hips underneath, sealed off for hand control, etc...Reward one, punish another.
f) God Bless you Jim! If you have officiated for 40 years and honestly think that only 2 coaches have been baiting you for a call. You have lived a charmed life.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio HS wrestling is down? Explain that to me
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on November 18, 2022
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Quote from Dan Strope's post:
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Several points and I will try to keep it short. As you say, we will not be able to agree on this.
1) I like and have long been a proponent of eliminating the stall call. I think the benefits are two fold in that it would force coaches to actually coach on how to take your opponent out of position to score and it would make the officiating easier and more consistent. I do think that the boundaries should be protected and I would favor some sort of step out type rule or strongly enforcing fleeing the mat or hold type call. The current boundary call is so subjective that it is simply is not working.
I would have no problem with this. I would love to see the step out rule brought to us.
2) In fairness, I should further explain "the love to be involved in a match" opinion. It is the world's worst kept secret that Ohio officials tend to look for stalling on the wrestler that is leading the match and it is exemplified in the third period. Not an opinion, that is observed FACT. I guess there is no imperial data on this but I would bet a Mr. Brisket lunch that Ohio would far outpace other states in wrestlers "cutting" their opponent in the third period for fear of the match getting tied by a stalling call or worse yet losing the match. This fear influences how the match gets actually wrestled and that is wrong.
You say this is "fact" but then say that there is no data to support the "fact".
I maintain that we do not "look" for stalling. Not in any meeting that I have attended (including at the State meet) have I ever been told to look for stalling in the third period or on the leading man.
3) What about Rule 5-24-5 ...When the defensive wrestler refuses to aggressively attempt to escapes and reversals, it is stalling? I will answer in the order that your asked:
a). Is laying parallel with your opponent wrestling aggressively? Sometimes but not all the time. It is definitely not the cut and dry call that most think. The most dominate current NCAA wrestler is Spencer Lee and he scores A TON of near fall points NEVER leaving the hip. He sits back, continues his attempt to rake the near arm until he locks the wrist and bar and "jumps" hips to score 4 near fall points never leaving parallel. He is just one of many examples of "hip riders" that score a lot of back points. Lee is interesting in the fact that the entire wrestling world knows what he is going to do and the attempt to stop it is for the bottom man to lock it their hands and put their hands as far away from their face that they can. Hardly, an attempt to escape. Who is stalling?
I will have to watch him closely to see if that is what he is able to do. That does bring up something that drives me crazy and that is NCAA officials hitting someone UNDER Lee for stalling. No one wants to be in that position and to hit them for stalling is, IMO, a complete joke.
BTW, if the def man is not wrestling, yes, he is stalling.
b) Switching half side to side. Again could be stalling but is not always cut and dry as one would think. In this scenario do you watch the action at the feet? What is going on at the actual half nelson? Who is stalling if the defensive man continually tangles the offensive man's feet to prevent advancing the half or clamps down on the half so tight that the top man no leverage to proceed?
In that case, the def man is stalling. No problem and penalize as such.
c) Ample time? Great question and entirely subjective. IMO this is one of two major differences between the styles of officiating. I believe Ohio officials in general put the burden on the winning wrestler. We will just have to agree to disagree on this point. It happens whether intentional or implied it happens. Again, PA tends to swallow their whistles more than their counter parts in this regard. In others words "their ample time' internal clock ticks A LOT longer. It is rather interesting that the PA kids have a national reputation as being "tough on the mat" and Ohio is "good on their feet". I really believe the different styles of officiating foster these reputations.
IMO, the word "winning" should be "offensive". Even then, I am not sure that I agree but I get your general idea. To that point, if the Pa kids know the official is not going to call stalling (under most any circumstance), what would the expected result be?
d) "If the bottom man choose to be there in the second or third period, IMO, it is his responsibility to show me something. After all, his choice told me that he thinks he is better from that position and can escape or reverse." It is this thought process toward stalling that leads credence to my argument that Ohio officials "love to be part of the match" So how do differentiate your defensive man stall call between him choosing down as opposed to him getting taken takedown in the first period? In your eyes, does he have to show less burden of proof? I mean he didn't choose to be there.
That is why I made the distinction that he made that choice. If he gets taken down, he did not do that by choice. Don't misunderstand, he still has to work to escape.
I don't agree that it supports us wanting to be part of the match at all.
e) The wrestling world would be a much better place if every official would realize that every call rewards one wrestler and at the same time punishes another. In general terms, I think one state does and one state doesn't. Purely personal opinion. Want to call the offensive wrestler for stalling? Go ahead but first consider has the bottom man attempted to create back pressure, slide his hips underneath, sealed off for hand control, etc...Reward one, punish another.
That is my point in saying to not decide is to decide. Look at both and see what you have. It might be nothing at all.
f) God Bless you Jim! If you have officiated for 40 years and honestly think that only 2 coaches have been baiting you for a call. You have lived a charmed life.
That is not what I said. We were discussing stalling and I said that I can only think of two who do it routinely. Of course others have done it but it is not all that often. They will look for any call they think they can get.
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All this said, this is getting WAY off the original subject and for that I apologize to anyone who is bored by this.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio HS wrestling is down? Explain that to me
Pat Costilow added to this discussion on November 18, 2022
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"We run a little youth wrestling program at Shaker and what I've noticed is interesting. The young kids we attract enjoy practice. They like being taught skills and lots of rigorous physical activity. Most, however, are not crazy about competition esp. at an early age.
Last year we did not compete at all and our program grew as the season progressed. In previous years when we had weekly competition, practice participation dwindled esp. after winter break.
This season we have increased numbers and I am constantly getting inquries from parents. I wouldn't be surprised if we hit 60 kids and have to split practices.
Not sure what conclusions to draw but kids like wrestling."
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Hank,
My son is in first grade and just started wrestling this year. He's done judo for 2+ years, so he is used to getting tossed around anyway. He loves practice, but when I mentioned their first meet, he told me he didn't want to compete. Interesting to hear you are seeing the same thing.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio HS wrestling is down? Explain that to me
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on November 19, 2022
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In an interview I saw Tommy Rowlands give, he said (paraphrasing here) "it's extremely difficult to make kids who live really soft lives, hard."
I see far too many kids that just want to wear a jersey rather than truly chase greatness.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio HS wrestling is down? Explain that to me
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on November 19, 2022
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Quote from Brady Hiatt's post:
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"In an interview I saw Tommy Rowlands give, he said (paraphrasing here) "it's extremely difficult to make kids who live really soft lives, hard."
I see far too many kids that just want to wear a jersey rather than truly chase greatness."
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That's always been the case. Tom Rowlands was literally one in a million.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio HS wrestling is down? Explain that to me
John Joyce added to this discussion on November 23, 2022
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To the point about having open mats in the off-season and coaches putting in the effort:
We’ve done that for 20+ years now and it’s tough to get kids to show up. Unless they already live, breathe, and eat the sport, they just don’t show up. Open mats, summer camps (hosting our own, going to others), off-season competitions (again hosting our own, going to others), etc. We do it all. We’ve continued to try and every year end up having kids from other schools show up more regularly than our own kids. And that’s fine, we love the sport and are happy to provide a room for anyone. But it’s disheartening to see the kids that show up that aren’t on your team continue to grow and beat your guys.
My point being, it’s not always a lack of effort from the staff. Most try and get zero turnout and then stop. Just opening your doors isn’t enough.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio HS wrestling is down? Explain that to me
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on November 23, 2022
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Quote from John Joyce's post:
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"To the point about having open mats in the off-season and coaches putting in the effort:
We’ve done that for 20+ years now and it’s tough to get kids to show up. Unless they already live, breathe, and eat the sport, they just don’t show up. Open mats, summer camps (hosting our own, going to others), off-season competitions (again hosting our own, going to others), etc. We do it all. We’ve continued to try and every year end up having kids from other schools show up more regularly than our own kids. And that’s fine, we love the sport and are happy to provide a room for anyone. But it’s disheartening to see the kids that show up that aren’t on your team continue to grow and beat your guys.
My point being, it’s not always a lack of effort from the staff. Most try and get zero turnout and then stop. Just opening your doors isn’t enough."
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To your point, my son coached for a number of years in Michigan and your words mirror his. Then you combine exactly what you wrote with zero parental involvement (or interest) and you have a recipe for failing. He said that virtually all the kids who came into their room were from different schools.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio HS wrestling is down? Explain that to me
Ethan Moore added to this discussion on November 23, 2022
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I have a couple thoughts on youth wrestling, but my experience is in IL and is may be different than Ohio.
In Illinois, almost every competition in youth wrestling is a tournament on Sunday with 25+ clubs in attendance. Although tournament organizers have the best of intentions, it's almost impossible to provide a good experience to new parents. The kids often sit around for a couple hours and then get a match. Sometimes parents are there from 7AM to noon to watch 2-3 matches. Compare that with soccer, basketball, baseball, etc etc and it's an odd experience for new parents. As someone who was around the sport my whole life, I don't like it either. Eats away half a Sunday.
There is also no skill-level competition selection. What I mean by this is you could be a first year kid and get a returning state champ in the first match. In every other sport, you can select to play in a community league, then maybe a drafted league, then maybe a travel league. In youth wrestling, this doesn't happen.
Finally, the environments are corrosive. Parents can be right on the edge of the mat, screaming and yelling. When I took my wife to our first one years ago she was like what is this? The HS environment is much more regulated with fan interaction and thus a safer space.
Add this all up and the youth competitive environment is odd.
I disagree with the idea that today's kids aren't tough. In the town I live the youth program has 125 kids, not all of them compete a lot but some do. I think those who don't it's based more on the above criteria than not being tough. The HS roster currently has 100 kids. Very healthy all the way around.
If I were running a youth club, I would try to find other clubs to wrestle. Match kids by skill level if possible with the other coach. Make it 90 minutes for the parents, like a HS dual/tri. This would be much more attractive to new parents and to kids. From there, those who want to compete more you find avenues to do so.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio HS wrestling is down? Explain that to me
Jeff Streu added to this discussion on November 23, 2022
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Quote from Ethan Moore's post:
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"If I were running a youth club, I would try to find other clubs to wrestle. Match kids by skill level if possible with the other coach. Make it 90 minutes for the parents, like a HS dual/tri. This would be much more attractive to new parents and to kids. From there, those who want to compete more you find avenues to do so."
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I like that idea, and I think most parents would.
By the way, what part of Illinois are/were you in?
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Discussion Topic: Ohio HS wrestling is down? Explain that to me
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on November 24, 2022
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"
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Quote from Brady Hiatt's post:
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"In an interview I saw Tommy Rowlands give, he said (paraphrasing here) "it's extremely difficult to make kids who live really soft lives, hard."
I see far too many kids that just want to wear a jersey rather than truly chase greatness."
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That's always been the case. Tom Rowlands was literally one in a million."
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Please do not sell him short. One in a billion; a trillion if you’re me.
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