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Discussion Topic: Redshirting in Elementary School and Middle School
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on March 27, 2008
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I am not sure the OHSAA can be trusted to do it right. We all remember the dismal job they did of policing LeBron James and his merry band of non-Catholics at SVSM. Or the mass transfer of girls from Trinity to Regina to follow the pied piper of girls' basketball, Pat Diulus. Or Maurice Clarrett attending 3 high schools in 3 1/2 years. But, then again, the individual districts (or schools in parochial/private cases) probably cannot be either.
This is an unfortunate, but very sticky, situation.
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Discussion Topic: Redshirting in Elementary School and Middle School
John Flanigan added to this discussion on March 27, 2008
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Quote from Gary Sommers's post:
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"You would probably have to look at the timing of the holdback. Kids who start late did it when they were 5 or 6, and probably (hopefully) not for athletic reasons. Other developmental issues can be identified and understood.
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Even when I was in school, there was a dad who started all of his boys late so they had a better chance of being good athletes.
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Quote from Gary Sommers's post:
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It is the middle school holdbacks, often accompanied by a transfer of schools by a student with a B average or perhaps better, that smells terrible and should be looked into.
Not everyone can be spotted, but it is kind of like a beautiful girl. Not everyone might agree on the exact definition, but usually you can tell one when you see one."
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I agree that in many cases you can tell, but too often we jump to conclusions. Many people are not identified with a learning disability until they are older, so it is not always easy to tell.
I am also going to be a dissenting opinion. It is up to a parent to do what they feel is best for their child, and if it is holding them back to help them succeed in any aspect, I do not have a huge problem with it. Trying to police parents like this is taking parental control away, and I am against that.
While I will personally never do it, I do not think that we should take that right away from others.
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Last edited by John Flanigan on March 27, 2008; edited 1 time in total
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Discussion Topic: Redshirting in Elementary School and Middle School
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on March 27, 2008
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John, I don't like government intrusion into the home and family either, but something has to be done to make/keep athletics a level playing field and not "penalize" or put at a disadavantage those who do things right (yes, a value judgement on my part).
Athletics, band, choir, clubs were meant to be extracurricular activites, NOT the driving force behind parental decisions. Perhaps I am being naive in saying that and thinking/hoping that is still the case, but I am not sure that a little idealism is such a bad thing. <smile>
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Discussion Topic: Redshirting in Elementary School and Middle School
John Flanigan added to this discussion on March 27, 2008
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Quote from Gary Sommers's post:
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"John, I don't like government intrusion into the home and family either, but something has to be done to make/keep athletics a level playing field and not "penalize" or put at a disadavantage those who do things right (yes, a value judgement on my part).
Athletics, band, choir, clubs were meant to be extracurricular activites, NOT the driving force behind parental decisions. Perhaps I am being naive in saying that and thinking/hoping that is still the case, but I am not sure that a little idealism is such a bad thing. <smile>"
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But, there will never be a level playing field. The wealthy school districts and private schools will always have an advantage over poorer public schools. While some areas will be able to break this advantage in certain sports, this is true overall.
You will also have kids that not only have better facilities, but the money to travel and compete against the best the country has to offer, not just a particular city, county or state. These kids compete year round and have access to better coaches and conditioning. Should we disallow camps because some can't afford to go?
Another way to look at it is to view it long-term. If a child has a better chance of getting a scholarship with abother year of maturity, is that really a bad thing? Is it so awful to take the financial strain off of a family? Is it bad when a poor child has a chance to get exposure at a bigger, possibly private school?
Athletics may not be the driving force behind a parental decision, it might be a tool to make a hard decision easier.
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Discussion Topic: Redshirting in Elementary School and Middle School
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on March 27, 2008
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Just guessing here, but I don't think there are too many "poor" kids (or more likely poor fathers) who are opting for this.
Again, start a boy when he is 6, hold him back in 8th, redshirt him in college, and you have a 25 year old senior. I don't think that is the idea of sports.
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Discussion Topic: Redshirting in Elementary School and Middle School
Roe Fox added to this discussion on March 27, 2008
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Does anyone know what the rule is on repeating a grade or is it up to the individual district?
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Discussion Topic: Redshirting in Elementary School and Middle School
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on March 27, 2008
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Where I live it is all up to the parents. I have known of parents who insist their child gets promoted, regardless of academic performance. And fortunately, I have not know any here who got held back for athletic reasons.
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Discussion Topic: Redshirting in Elementary School and Middle School
J.P. Barner added to this discussion on March 28, 2008
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Quote from Gary Sommers's post:
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"Just guessing here, but I don't think there are too many "poor" kids (or more likely poor fathers) who are opting for this.
Again, start a boy when he is 6, hold him back in 8th, redshirt him in college, and you have a 25 year old senior. I don't think that is the idea of sports."
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Define 'poor' - is the prospect of paying $150k or more for college a daunting financial burden for a particular family? I'm hardly poor, but putting my kid through Drexel has been a real strain and I'm not going to begrudge parents taking a long term view.
Just my $.02
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Discussion Topic: Redshirting in Elementary School and Middle School
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on March 28, 2008
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No doubt you have to think of yourself, but to hold your child back on a whim and a prayer (no one is guaranteed a scholarship in 8th grade and if you are then you don't need to be held back), and in the meantime possibly disturb the competitive balance of a sport for others, is in my opinion very selfish. A 14 year old who might have to compete against a 19 year old just because the 19 year old's parents could not or would not properly plan for their child's college education is a bit crazy to me.
There are better ways. Have the child work for an academic scholarship. Have them take out student loans. Apply for any of the numerous grants out there. Try work-study. I have my third in college now, at a sticker of $49K/year, and there are plenty of ways besides holding your child back again on a whim and a prayer. Anyone paying full price for their child is either VERY well off or did not utilize everything that is available.
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Discussion Topic: Redshirting in Elementary School and Middle School
John Flanigan added to this discussion on March 28, 2008
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Quote from Gary Sommers's post:
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"Just guessing here, but I don't think there are too many "poor" kids (or more likely poor fathers) who are opting for this.
Again, start a boy when he is 6, hold him back in 8th, redshirt him in college, and you have a 25 year old senior. I don't think that is the idea of sports."
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As someone else pointed out, poor is a relative term. My parents were not poor according to the gov't, but they could not afford to put me through college, so I had to do it myself.
Your math is wrong, as the kid would be a 23 year old senior. If you do not think it is the idea of sports, why do kids start at 4 or 5 years old now? If you think it is okay to start a kid in a competitive sport this young to have an advantage when he/she is older, why is it wrong to hold them back? Why is it okay to have year round camps? Once again, the "poor" who can't afford to send their kid to an elite camp is disadvantaged.
Interesting that you cherry pick one point out of a long post of mine, while refusing to address any of the other issues.
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Discussion Topic: Redshirting in Elementary School and Middle School
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on March 28, 2008
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John, you are correct I am off by one. If they start as 6 and take two "redshirt" years they will be 24 Age 7 leaving K, age 19 leaving HS, and age 24 leaving college. I was 17 starting college, and 24 with a Masters, so this is a bit of an elongated path to me.
My kids started sports for fun, NOT to have any advantage when they were older. Who knew what they might be like when they got older, just like NO parent knows at 4 or 5 how their child will grow up. Parents who start their children for a competitve advantage, or for any reason other than fun at that age, have serious issues.
Because camps are available year-round doesn't mean you have to send your child to them year-round. You might pick a couple for various reasons, but to constantly have them in camps is again an issue for the parents. My middle son once had a CYO basketball teammate who attended TEN camps the summer after 4th grade. TEN!!!! His father coached him then and played him the entire game, literally all the games while the mothers said you have to do that to prepare him for the NBA. <crazy> He quit the sport before he got to HS JV.
Am I still missing any of your issues you brought up?
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Discussion Topic: Redshirting in Elementary School and Middle School
Ken Ramsey Sr. added to this discussion on March 28, 2008
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Quote from Gary Sommers's post:
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"No doubt you have to think of yourself, but to hold your child back on a whim and a prayer (no one is guaranteed a scholarship in 8th grade and if you are then you don't need to be held back), and in the meantime possibly disturb the competitive balance of a sport for others, is in my opinion very selfish. A 14 year old who might have to compete against a 19 year old just because the 19 year old's parents could not or would not properly plan for their child's college education is a bit crazy to me.
There are better ways. Have the child work for an academic scholarship. Have them take out student loans. Apply for any of the numerous grants out there. Try work-study. I have my third in college now, at a sticker of $49K/year, and there are plenty of ways besides holding your child back again on a whim and a prayer. Anyone paying full price for their child is either VERY well off or did not utilize everything that is available."
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Gary:
I agree completely with your position. This subject has been on other forums over the last few months and it amazes me how many posters condone this behavior and the reasons they give for their belief.
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Discussion Topic: Redshirting in Elementary School and Middle School
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on March 28, 2008
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I like how they try to rationalize that this is the only way for little Johnny to go to college. As if that is their prime or sole motivation for the practice. And this is not football or basketball, how many wrestlers attend college on full athletic rides?
I just pointed out a number of other ways to afford college.
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Discussion Topic: Redshirting in Elementary School and Middle School
Roe Fox added to this discussion on March 28, 2008
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Actually, I don't know if it would be so hard to police. If you want to preclude athletic holdbacks period or just let it kick in after, say, 6th grade or so just mandate it be for academic/emotional issues and only permit it where a licensed counselor has so advised.
Obviously, the system still could be flaunted but at least there would be a rational basis for permitting it rather than just allowing it. An additional impediment or two may dissuade the majority considering it from doing it. I'm not naive to think some hired counselors won't prostitute themselves but schools should make the effort.
Otherwise, we just argue about something that we have no control over which becomes a de facto way of doing business.
Like Ken I argree with the last thread Gary posted. There is an unfairness to the hardworking student-athlete going straight through. It also adds an unnatural competitive imbalance to the system.
The college funding rationale is almost a wink and a nod excuse for what we know is actually going on.
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Discussion Topic: Redshirting in Elementary School and Middle School
John Ice added to this discussion on March 28, 2008
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Why is red shirting in college so accepted? In fact many people think it is a great idea for kids to take an extra year.
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