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Discussion Topic: Burroughs vs Marstellar
Jeff Streu added to this discussion on June 13, 2023
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Quote from Jared Ball's post:
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"I’m not of a high confidence that Marsteller is at a medalist level yet for worlds. His game plan for Jordan is not highly transferable to everyone else."
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Chance Marstellar has a recent win over the Iranian Savadkouhi who beat Burroughs at the most recent World Cup, so I'd say that Chance does have a good shot at a medal.
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Discussion Topic: Burroughs vs Marstellar
Ben Golden added to this discussion on June 14, 2023
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Man, how impressive of Marsteller to be able to do what he's doing after the substance issues he's had. I remember being shocked to even see his name in a tournament a couple years ago because I thought his career had been over for a while. Now he is better than ever and may win worlds. Incredible.
Kinda reminds me of when Josh Hamilton debuted for the Reds 10-15 years ago after battling drug issues, and then had an MVP MLB career. Truly remarkable.
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Discussion Topic: Burroughs vs Marstellar
Justin Hayes added to this discussion on June 19, 2023
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"Hate to be the "that's the trouble with freestyle" guy as I love the sport...but that's the problem. As an experienced fan and former wrestler, I should be able to watch that situation and know how it's going to be called. Instead, there is no way to know who's going to get how many points."
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I just finished Final X last night.
Utterly fantastic wrestling, love the sport, loved the event but I'm confused on things like "white paddles" or wrestler A scores the first takedown and wrestler B matches it then suddenly has some type of criteria advantage, etc. and, transparently, since I'm not competing/coaching I don't want to put in the effort to figure out the complexity of something that I don't think needs to be this complex.
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Discussion Topic: Burroughs vs Marstellar
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on June 19, 2023
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Quote from Justin Hayes's post:
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"
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"Hate to be the "that's the trouble with freestyle" guy as I love the sport...but that's the problem. As an experienced fan and former wrestler, I should be able to watch that situation and know how it's going to be called. Instead, there is no way to know who's going to get how many points."
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I just finished Final X last night.
Utterly fantastic wrestling, love the sport, loved the event but I'm confused on things like "white paddles" or wrestler A scores the first takedown and wrestler B matches it then suddenly has some type of criteria advantage, etc. and, transparently, since I'm not competing/coaching I don't want to put in the effort to figure out the complexity of something that I don't think needs to be this complex."
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Not looking to start an issue but it is all in understanding the rules of any activity.
FS is no harder to understand than folkstyle. Just different.
The best I ever heard is that FS is about exposure where folkstyle is about control.
For example, try explaining what "stalling" is to a non-fan.
Now take it a step farther and explain NCAA "riding" vs "stalling".
Not so easy to do. In HS wrestling, not working for a fall or to score is stalling.
For the NCAA, the wrestler is rewarded with a point.
Heck, even explaining riding time, to a non-fan, is not easy.
BTW, I absolutely love the idea that someone is always winning no matter the score and no OT is needed.
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Discussion Topic: Burroughs vs Marstellar
Jeff Streu added to this discussion on June 19, 2023
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Quote from Jim Behrens's post:
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"The best I ever heard is that FS is about exposure where folkstyle is about control."
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This is the explanation I usually use. Got it from an old school technique book that I read years ago.
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Discussion Topic: Burroughs vs Marstellar
Ben Golden added to this discussion on June 20, 2023
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Control vs exposure is a helpful distinction between freestyle and folkstyle, but that doesn't cover everything. The concept of "whose move was it" is a flaw, in my opinion. There are many circumstances where discerning "whose move it was" is very challenging for even an expert. For non-experts, even more so.
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Discussion Topic: Burroughs vs Marstellar
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on June 20, 2023
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Quote from Ben Golden's post:
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"Control vs exposure is a helpful distinction between freestyle and folkstyle, but that doesn't cover everything. The concept of "whose move was it" is a flaw, in my opinion. There are many circumstances where discerning "whose move it was" is very challenging for even an expert. For non-experts, even more so."
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Unfortunately, nothing can cover everything. Even if that were possible, the rule book would be so large that it would not be manageable (think of the US tax code).
I would compare this to something like a FB receiver catching a pass while going OOB's.
Did he have "control"?
Was he clearly inbounds or did he drag a toe? Was that toe inbounds?
The official on the spot has to make that call immediately. Always easy from the stands but not quite as easy on the field. BTW, I am not a fan of using replay as an officiating tool.
In FS, they have 3 officials so, in theory, that should make it "easier" to make a call but different angles lead to different views as to what happened. None of this will ever mean that they will always get it right especially with two athletes who are so very evenly matched.
BTW, I am not sure what a "non-expert" is. Everyone in the stands is an expert, they let me know it all the time.
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Discussion Topic: Burroughs vs Marstellar
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on June 20, 2023
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Quote from Jim Behrens's post:
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"
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Quote from Ben Golden's post:
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"Control vs exposure is a helpful distinction between freestyle and folkstyle, but that doesn't cover everything. The concept of "whose move was it" is a flaw, in my opinion. There are many circumstances where discerning "whose move it was" is very challenging for even an expert. For non-experts, even more so."
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Unfortunately, nothing can cover everything. Even if that were possible, the rule book would be so large that it would not be manageable (think of the US tax code).
I would compare this to something like a FB receiver catching a pass while going OOB's.
Did he have "control"?
Was he clearly inbounds or did he drag a toe? Was that toe inbounds?
The official on the spot has to make that call immediately. Always easy from the stands but not quite as easy on the field. BTW, I am not a fan of using replay as an officiating tool.
In FS, they have 3 officials so, in theory, that should make it "easier" to make a call but different angles lead to different views as to what happened. None of this will ever mean that they will always get it right especially with two athletes who are so very evenly matched.
BTW, I am not sure what a "non-expert" is. Everyone in the stands is an expert, they let me know it all the time."
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Excellent post Jim. Shrewd observations and a wickedly funny finish. Well done.
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Discussion Topic: Burroughs vs Marstellar
Justin Hayes added to this discussion on June 23, 2023
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Poor articulation on my part:
I understand the difference between folkstyle and freestyle.
It seems like the when the "rules" change, they tend to be big leaps...wasn't there a time the competitors had to pick a ball from a bag?
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Discussion Topic: Burroughs vs Marstellar
Jeff Streu added to this discussion on June 23, 2023
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Quote from Justin Hayes's post:
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"Poor articulation on my part:
I understand the difference between folkstyle and freestyle.
It seems like the when the "rules" change, they tend to be big leaps...wasn't there a time the competitors had to pick a ball from a bag?"
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Yeah, I think that was in place from about 2005-2011 or 2012. That was when the score reset after each period, and winner of two out of three periods won the match. You could end a period by getting one five point move, two three point moves, a six point differential, or plain old more points at the end of two minutes. If it was 0-0 at the end of two minutes a colored ball was pulled from a bag and the winning color got to start with a single leg for a 30 second go. If either wrestler scored a point they won the period, or if not then the defensive wrestler won.
In 2006 I saw Jordan Oliver win a match 1-0, 1-0 at Fargo where his color got pulled in the ball grab both periods. I don't remember who the opposing wrestler was but the look on his face when red was pulled both periods said it all.
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