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Discussion Topic: Iron Man
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on December 10, 2023
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Quote from Jim Behrens's post:
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"
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Quote from Bruce Andrews's post:
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"A bit sad to see how host Walsh Jesuit fared. Not a single wrestler in their lineup won a match and the team finished with zero points."
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When you bring in the very, very best from all over the country, is it really that surprising? I have not looked at the team results but I would imagine a lot of schools are in the same boat."
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Jim, u say not surprising, "alot of of schools in same boat"---- r u kidding of course its surprising, even shocking, when u consider where the WJ Dynasty was in the 90s and still pretty good in the early 2000s. ... to me anyway its quite shocking.
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Discussion Topic: Iron Man
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on December 10, 2023
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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"
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Quote from Jim Behrens's post:
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"
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Quote from Bruce Andrews's post:
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"A bit sad to see how host Walsh Jesuit fared. Not a single wrestler in their lineup won a match and the team finished with zero points."
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When you bring in the very, very best from all over the country, is it really that surprising? I have not looked at the team results but I would imagine a lot of schools are in the same boat."
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Jim, u say not surprising, "alot of of schools in same boat"---- r u kidding of course its surprising, even shocking, when u consider where the WJ Dynasty was in the 90s and still pretty good in the early 2000s. ... to me anyway its quite shocking."
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Bob,
I wasn't meaning it in a bad way at all.
I hear what you are saying but you are talking 20 to 30 years ago. When you remember that every 4 years every team changes 100%. That is a lot of difference.
IMO, the kids at the top today are much better then they ever have been.`Now bring them in from all over the country and the battle to be at the top becomes even
harder.
I have seen your writings about the dramatic changes in NE Ohio wrestling in that time. Lots of reasons as you have said. Looking at Walsh specifically, and correct me if I am wrong, back then Walsh was all boys weren't they? Now, I would imagine that 1/2 of their students are girls which means fewer boys to get into wrestling. Is North Akron still a youth wrestling powerhouse? That was certainly a factor in their success with Bill Barger leading the charge at both places.
Again, I am not "down" on the team, it is just a different world.
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Discussion Topic: Iron Man
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on December 11, 2023
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your points well made Jim, as always. ..however imo, it is shocking to go from dynasty to "zero" points. Bringing in girls limited male enrollment, i get it. but it didnt ruin the wrestling program (unless u subscribe to the boxing theory of abstinence prior to a big prize fight.)
yes u r right, for quite a few years now ive spoken of decline in Cleveland area (and in fact Ohio) but no one told St. Eds apparently. Or in recent times state contenders Massillon Perry, Elyria, Wadsworth and Brecksville, all publics btw.
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Discussion Topic: Iron Man
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on December 11, 2023
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Other than St. Edward, name a school that has lasted 30 years at the top.
I'm pretty sure Solon, Maple Heights, Claymont, Clyde, Columbus Bishop Ready, Bridgeport, St. Iggy, Nordonia - they all years (decades) of great teams/programs. Again, other than STED, things move in cycles.
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Discussion Topic: Iron Man
Drew Taylor added to this discussion on December 11, 2023
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Walsh’s dropoff didn’t just happen. The program hasn’t been great in probably 15 years. Sustaining excellence is hard.
The better discussion is Graham. This is a program used to competing for Ironman titles. Right now they aren’t even close. I don’t follow HS as closely as I should. Can we attribute Graham’s slide to Jeff Jordan’s departure or are there other factors?
Even Ed’s isn’t dominant on the national scene any longer.
Ohio wrestling has slipped. Again, sustaining excellence is hard.
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Discussion Topic: Iron Man
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on December 11, 2023
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I wanted to say something intelligent about where Ohio teams finished at the Ironman and what it says about the quality of wrestling in our state. My sense of things is that in spite of the fact Ohio teams out numbered out of state squads, Ohio didn't do particularly well.
One problem--I can't find the team scores. If Flo has them, they're well hidden. Couldn't find anything on the once useful InterMat sight. And when I went to Walshironman.com it was as defunct a site as the school's wrestling program.
I can find individual outcomes easily as well as the brackets. But the team scores are apparently classified info.
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Discussion Topic: Iron Man
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on December 11, 2023
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Trackwrestling.com Should have started there.
Wyoming Seminary (PA) 268.0
2 Blair Academy 174.5
3 Edmond North 146.0
4 St. Edward 121.0
5 Bishop McCort 120.5
6 Malvern Prep 113.0
7 Faith Christian Academy 107.0
8 Stillwater 104.5
9 Lake Highland Prep 83.5
10 Perrysburg 78.0
11 Brownsburg 77.0
12 Mt. Carmel 76.5
13 St. Charles East 74.0
14 Massillon Perry 70.0
15 Dublin Coffman 66.5
15 Liberty 66.5
17 Bixby 62.5
18 Crown Point 59.0
19 Center Grove 56.5
19 St. Francis DeSales 56.5
21 Skutt Catholic 52.5
22 State College 52.0
23 Bethlehem Catholic 48.5
24 Warren Township 47.5
25 Green Farms Academy 44.0
26 Frazier 43.0
27 Baylor School 42.0
27 Brecksville 42.0
27 Pomona 42.0
30 Ponaganset 40.0
31 Marist 38.5
31 Melissa 38.5
33 Reynolds 36.5
34 Notre Dame 34.5
34 Union County 34.5
36 Buckeye 34.0
36 Winter Springs 34.0
38 St Paris Graham 33.0
39 Gilman School 32.5
40 Lake Gibson 32.0
40 Wadsworth 32.0
42 Ponderosa 31.0
43 St Micheal the Archangel 30.0
44 La Salle 29.0
45 Parkersburg South 28.5
46 Marmion Academy 27.5
46 Olentangy Liberty 27.5
48 St Christopher`s School 27.0
49 Broken Arrow 25.0
49 Staunton River 25.0
51 Bishop Watterson 24.0
51 Father Ryan 24.0
51 Hononegah 24.0
51 Legacy Christian Academy 24.0
51 Pleasant Grove 24.0
51 St. Pius X 24.0
57 IC Catholic Prep 23.0
58 Barnesville 22.5
59 Joliet Catholic Academy 22.0
59 Loyola Academy 22.0
59 Point Pleasant 22.0
62 Archbishop Moeller 20.0
62 Staley 20.0
64 Archbold 19.0
64 Lake Catholic 19.0
64 Washington Community 19.0
67 Cardinal Gibbons 18.0
67 Whitmer 18.0
69 Aurora 17.0
69 Highland 17.0
71 Mullen 16.0
71 Seckman 16.0
73 Hillsboro 15.0
74 Montini Catholic 13.5
75 Canon-McMillan 13.0
75 Layton 13.0
75 Sycamore 13.0
78 Dublin Scioto 12.0
78 Gallion 12.0
78 Jesuit New Orleans 12.0
78 Springboro 12.0
82 Jensen Beach 11.0
82 Normal Community 11.0
82 St. Vincent-St Mary 11.0
85 Bishop Hartley 10.0
85 Blackfoot 10.0
85 Central Catholic 10.0
85 Corner Canyon 10.0
85 Spire Academy 10.0
90 Brooke Point 9.5
90 Mentor 9.5
90 Whitfield 9.5
93 Crestview (Ashland) 8.0
93 Mountain View 8.0
95 Keystone 7.0
95 Millard West 7.0
95 St. Xavier 7.0
95 Steubenville 7.0
95 Toledo Waite 7.0
95 University (WV) 7.0
101 Edgewood 6.0
101 Genoa 6.0
101 Gunnison 6.0
101 Lancaster 6.0
101 Liberty Center 6.0
101 South Summit 6.0
101 Western Reserve Academy 6.0
108 Clay 5.0
108 Davis 5.0
108 McDonogh School 5.0
111 Meridian 4.0
111 Monroeville 4.0
111 Unity 4.0
111 University 4.0
115 Christianburg 3.0
115 Greeneville 3.0
115 Hallsville 3.0
115 Marysville 3.0
115 Mesa Ridge 3.0
115 Nixa 3.0
115 Sussex Central 3.0
122 Cuyahoga Valley Christian Academy 2.0
122 Fremont 2.0
122 Mayfield 2.0
125 Kenston 1.0
126 Caravel Academy 0.0
126 Elyria HS 0.0
126 Herriman 0.0
126 Penn 0.0
126 Walsh Jesuit
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Discussion Topic: Iron Man
Jared Ball added to this discussion on December 12, 2023
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I think you have to go straight metrics on this one. Graham’s decline is unarguable, yes you attribute that to Jordan’s departure. Fewer iron man champs, fewer number 1 ranked guys. Fewer D1 AA’s & champs. Participation numbers for boys are slowly receding as well.
I agree that the elite wrestler is better than ever; however, the gap between the elite and average wrestler is wider than ever. Kids have more choices than ever between sports and activities. Wrestling is no longer a blue collar/working class sport IMO. You have to have money to be elite. To join clubs with the best coaches, to travel and compete, etc. The accessibility of the sport has diminished for guys, but we are seeing the exact opposite for girls.
I also think you have to attribute some of this to the rise of pockets of wrestling in other parts of the country. Texas, Florida, and other states weren’t sending national level guys all over the country 25 years ago. I don’t recall Jersey or Illinois competing at these same levels. Go take a look at a ASICS All America poster from the 90s. It’s replete with Pennsylvania, Ohio, and some California kids.
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Discussion Topic: Iron Man
J.P. Barner added to this discussion on December 12, 2023
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I used to look at the team results to see how the PA schools did, but few, if any, of the trditional powers - Easton, Northumberland, Central Dauphin, Waynesboro, Connelsville, etc - are listed. The only PA HS I recognize in the list above is State College. (Gee, I wonder why...:))
Reason is all the prep schools have skimmed the cream off the top of HS wrestling in my state. Wyo Seminary, Malvern Prep (dramatic impact in my home area), Faith Christian, Beth Catholic and others have offered the best wrestlers (along with other sports athletes) better training, better education, safer schools (!), etc and parents can see the benefits. Though even with schollies, getting into those schools has a cost - your kid has to train year-round to get into more national, recognized tourneys at a younger age to get noticed by these preps. And that costs money.
Welcome to the 21st century I guess, where our sports are more of a mess every day.
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Discussion Topic: Iron Man
Ethan Moore added to this discussion on December 12, 2023
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Lots of good points being made. The truth is it's just a different time at the very elite levels, which is what the Ironman attracts. All parents are doing right by their kids and what they think is best but that is very rarely a commitment to their local program or HS. Even (most of) the best public program are drawing kids from a wide area.
The Illinois programs that attended were:
Mt. Carmel - private
Marmion Academy - private
Marist - private
IC Catholic Prep - private
Montini Catholic - private
Joliet Catholic - private
Loyola Academy - private
Warren Township - public
St. Charles East - public
St. Charles East is ranked first in the state as a public program which is impressive. However, they have attracted top talen from around the state much like a private school. I am not judging, kids and parents are going to schools to give them the best opportunity.
Dom Manuretto is an example. I believe his youth club was in Waukegan IL (far North Chicago suburb). He began his HS career at Mt. Carmel IL (far South Chicago). He then transferred to St. Charles East (far West Chicago suburb).
That is amazing commitment from the parents to find the best spot for their son. All of those places are about 90 minutes apart. My wife and I (two working parents) struggle to get our 3 kids to and from practices in our own small suburb!
But as we've discussed for years, when you take the best kid off a public school team it's a heavy, heavy impact.
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Discussion Topic: Iron Man
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on December 12, 2023
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PA and Ohio were the indisputable two best states in the country for a long time. Probably in that order but we were competitive with them.
Now, PA remains atop the nation while Ohio has sagged. Why did PA stay so good while Ohio ebbed?
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Discussion Topic: Iron Man
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on December 12, 2023
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The local high school no longer seems to be the hub of the community. Perhaps it's my own rose-colored glasses, but probably learned behavior from my past.
I recall my dad and his buddies used to lament (Patrick Niemann - correct me publicly if I am wrong on this) that individuals (friends!) from his neighborhood were bussed to neighboring schools while students from the other side of town were bussed in.
I knew a good number of my dad's high school friends because they stuck together based on their formative years. In fact, when he was in bad shape, laying in a hospital bed, two of his HS classmates came to visit him. They said they hadn't seen him in years but grew up with him. And because of that, they wanted to visit.
I have seen local high school class reunions from the 70s through the 90s - they have reunited because of the memories they formed while in HS.
It just does not seem to be the case anymore.
The whole world is apathetic and nobody cares!
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Discussion Topic: Iron Man
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on December 12, 2023
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Mark,
That reminds of a line that I like a lot.
Question:
In this world which is the bigger problem, ignorance or apathy?
Answer:
I don't know and I don't care.
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Discussion Topic: Iron Man
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on December 18, 2023
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any doubt now? ..excerpt from WIN magazine
Ohio saw a unique Ironman streak
come to an end. The host state, which
won 40 Ironman titles the previous decade,
failed to crown an individual champion
for the first time in the tournament’s
history.
Ohio’s hopes took their first major hit
in the semifinals, when Max Shulaw of
St. Francis DeSales lost to Rune Lawrence
of Pennsylvania 10-5 in the semifinals.
Shulaw had been the wrestler who extended
his state’s streak by winning the
2022 title – en route to WIN Wrestler of
the Year honors for 2023.
The wrestler with the best chance to
extend Ohio’s streak was two-time World
champion Marcus Blaze (132) of Perrysburg,
who faced Davino in a battle of
former Ironman champions … and 2023
U-17 World Team teammates in freestyle.
Eliminated in a single match at the World
meet, 2022 Ironman champion Davino
beat his gold-medal teammate, the 2021
Ironman champion, 3-2 in the ultimate
tiebreaker. At 138, Omar Ayoub of Dublin
Coffman, Ohio’s other finalist, lost 5-1 to
repeat champion Bassett.
Not only was Ohio shut out, but one
of the nation’s wrestling hotbeds, northeast
Ohio, didn’t produce a finalist. The
region hasn’t produced an Ironman champion
since current NC State wrestler Dylan
Fishback won a title for Aurora High
School in 2021, though it did produce a
pair of finalists in 2022. Northeast Ohio
produced only eight of the 112 Ironman
placewinners and Walsh Jesuit, the host
school, didn’t score a single team point.
Lakewood St. Edward, which is
expected to stretch its streak of winning
a Division I dual or individual team title
to nine straight years in 2024, finished
fourth with a team built on balance rather
than on individual stars. The Eagles’
four Ironman placewinners included no
top-three finishers. But all 13 St. Edward
entries won at least once, and nine of the
13 posted at least three wins.
St. Edward’s performance might
have been bolstered by three missing
starters —
state finalist Bradley Eaton,
state placewinner Jonny Slaper and state
qualifier Nathan Gregory
@WINwrestlingMag 21
PA top state at loaded Ironman; early look at prep talent
High School
Wrestling
Rob Sherrill
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