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Discussion Topic: A change is needed
Freddy Carr added to this discussion on March 8, 2021
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Looking back thru the thread, it doesn’t really feel like a “fire the coaches” thread IMO. More of a “change in approach is needed” thread.
Calling it a “fire the coaches” thread feels like a distraction from the points being made about themes such as struggling with mat wrestling, highly thought of recruits not developing, dropping out of title picture, etc.
JMO.
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Discussion Topic: A change is needed
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on March 8, 2021
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Two issues I see are recruiting and coaching. As Bob P pointed out, the last several years the Bucks have not gotten the hoped for results out of Singletary, Rocky, Decatur or Hoffman. Echemendia has tremendous ability--witness his dual against Eierman which was 1-0 heading into the 3rd period--but he's a nightmare on bottom. And Kinner's gone. Bottom line is the Bucks have issues at 133, 141 (I like D'Emilio but 9th in Big Ten is not good enough) 157, 184 and 197. Where is the help coming from? Even if Paddy Gallagher can make 157, it would be foolish to expect him to be an impact wrestler as a true frosh (translation--redshirt him). This string reminds me of early in Ryan's days as head coach when he struggled to land the right guys.
But the recruiting issues are compounded by bad wrestling. The Bucks mat strategies are often weak (I'm being polite) and too many of their guys can't finish shots. Coach Ryan wants his wrestlers to be aggressive, which I appreciate, but that means you have to know how to protect your ankles, defeat whizzers, etc...
Programs like Purdue, NW and MSU are taking less heralded talents and coaching them up. Coaching up your talent is as important as who you recruit. As Greg Urbas liked to say (and I'm borrowing from Bob P again), you're allowed to improve.
Bucks can still have a credible NCAA tourament if Heinselman, Smith and Romero all place and Sasso wins it. Even Orndorf is in play for a low placement. But if the Bucks have something close to their best possible NCAA tourney, there are significant issues this program must overcome if it's to get back to being an elite squad.
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Discussion Topic: A change is needed
Rob Wagner added to this discussion on March 8, 2021
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If certain guys are down 1-0 heading into the 3rd next weekend, or weekend after this, whatever; i'd really like to see some adjustments i.e. more explosion off the whistle if they do choose bottom, or electing to go neutral to start.
This is what will give me back some confidence in this coaching staff, and I don't think I'm setting the bar too high.
Malik: Top 6
Sasso: Top 3
Smith: Top 8
Romero: Top 5
Orndorff: R12
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Discussion Topic: A change is needed
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on March 8, 2021
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Quote from Freddy Carr's post:
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"Looking back thru the thread, it doesn’t really feel like a “fire the coaches” thread IMO. More of a “change in approach is needed” thread.
Calling it a “fire the coaches” thread feels like a distraction from the points being made about themes such as struggling with mat wrestling, highly thought of recruits not developing, dropping out of title picture, etc.
JMO."
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I believe this is a fair point, to a point. The OP mentioned a shake up in coaching. Unless he meant heavier weight coaches go with the light weights and vice versa, I think he meant to get rid of someone (other than tNDG).
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Discussion Topic: A change is needed
Nick Lecklider added to this discussion on March 8, 2021
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Ohio state is just missing out on too many recruits. Several guys who were five star type and top ten overall have been complete busts. Decatur Hoffman and singletary were all top ten overall and haven’t came close to expectations. Echemndia has no clue on top or bottom and I’m not sure that can be fixed. That is four big time guys that just haven’t panned out. Can’t miss on that many guys. The heavyweight does not look like a guy that was top ten last year and has also been a disappointment. Carson if healthy is an immediate title contender but he has been getting injured for years now so who know if he can ever stay healthy. 157 we never really recruited a guy for that spot. I don’t think anyone expected clearly to be a starter in our lineup, more of a depth guy. But there is no way Michigan state should be placing above the Buckeyes at the big ten tourney. I believe they scored -1 points at nationals a few years back. That is inexcusable and change must happen. Paddy Gallagher will help fill in the 157 nicely. I think he is a can’t miss product. Then 165 smith 174 Carson if healthy. 184 Romero. Not sure how shumate will pan out. Looks like an all star sometimes but losing to lesser ranked guys quite a few times. I think the Pennsylvania heavy will have more upside. Definitely need to fill in lower weights not sure who is on the radar
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Discussion Topic: A change is needed
Alex Creech added to this discussion on March 8, 2021
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Hoffman, Rocky, Decatur are only sophmores and Ech is a freshman who never wrestled folkstyle until a couple years ago and probably never really trained for it until this year. While they have not met expectations based on their recruiting rankings, calling them busts is a bit pre-mature.
Everything about this season is different from anything experienced previously. How can you blame someone for not getting it right when there's no past experience from anyone. It does seem that other programs faired much better this season compared to the bucks. So the first question is what did these other programs do differently so the next time there is a pandemic they'll be better prepared.
As for the apparent history of poor mat wrestling from tOSU wrestlers, I don't have an answer for that. I say apparent because I only follow the bucks, i have no idea what the prevalence is in other programs of bottom problems. Not everyone is a stieber on the mat, and remember he even had occasional problems on bottom.
oh, and did i mention riding in folkstyle is boring and disinteresting with the exception of a handful of guys.
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Discussion Topic: A change is needed
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on March 8, 2021
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"oh, and did i mention riding in folkstyle is boring and disinteresting with the exception of a handful of guys."
Agree.
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Discussion Topic: A change is needed
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on March 8, 2021
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Quote from Alex Creech's post:
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"
oh, and did i mention riding in folkstyle is boring and disinteresting with the exception of a handful of guys."
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I would venture to say that those exceptions are constatnly attacking for the turn/pin.
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Discussion Topic: A change is needed
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on March 8, 2021
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i think Hoffman and Rocky are in their 3rd year, which if so, to me they aren't really "sophomores" experience-wise. Singletary his 4th year. Guys from that highly touted class 3 years ago should be hiting their stride now.
Kerkvliet threw us a curve, but he didnt look like a gamechanger at Big Tens either. i see Okla St recovered from their Kerkvliet Blues nicely. Ferrari looks very good winning Big 12 at 197, and i think he can win NCAA too as a true freshman.
I am sure ohio st felt upper wts were going to be a strength by now, but with only 9.9 schols theres no room for mistakes (unlike football).
As Cleveland St Joe's John Storey would say, "The cream will come to the top." And it is.
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Discussion Topic: A change is needed
Don Bork added to this discussion on March 8, 2021
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Several posters on this forum have voiced their frustration with the past weekend’s performance, I being one. This is simply evidence of our becoming spoiled by the many successes we have witnessed since coach Ryan took over the program. I doubt very many of us would advocate for any drastic change in staff personnel. However the direction of the future of the program is of concern. To be clear, the Buckeyes did not under perform this past weekend. From a seeding perspective, of our five placers, only Malik did not reach his seed, placing one placement lower. I don’t think anyone should be to upset with that, as Foley of MSU was rated second nationally entering the season. Sasso wrestled to seed (and of course he could not have done any better than that). Smith and Romero both placed one placement above their seed and Orndorff placed two placements higher. Each of these wrestlers have a legitimate chance to reach the podium in two weeks. As for Orndorff “not looking good” this season, the big ten heavyweights can do that to you. Of note, he did avenge the early season loss to Luffman of Illinois and looked good to me in his match for fifth place. The teams other five weight classes performed pretty much as expected. Rocky was seeded tenth which is were he finished. Hoffman seeded ninth and did not place. Cleary and DeEmilio placed ninth in the mini tournament, and 133 we had no wrestler. We had a total of three wins from these five weights, but again, that was a realistic expectation. As I mentioned in a previous post, Ryan stated years ago that ten AAs is the goal. We are trending in the wrong direction. One additional point, of the five placers we had four will be wrestling their final year next season (unless they choose to return based on the COVID-19 exception). Where we go from here will be interesting to see. Will we return to challenge PSU, Iowa and others for conference and national trophies? My own assessment is that an influx of talent is needed, and developing that talent is a must. Coach Ryan and the staff certainly have their work cut out for themselves.
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Discussion Topic: A change is needed
Jim Kessen added to this discussion on March 8, 2021
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Quote from Christopher Henderson's post:
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"Yeah, what happened to Decatur? He didn't even wrestle. Were the Kootzes unavailable?"
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According to Pat Mineo he missed weight and therefore isn’t eligible for a wildcard.
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Discussion Topic: A change is needed
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on March 8, 2021
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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""oh, and did i mention riding in folkstyle is boring and disinteresting with the exception of a handful of guys."
Agree."
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Agree #2
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Discussion Topic: A change is needed
Drew Taylor added to this discussion on March 8, 2021
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Decatur has a history of missing weight in the postseason. Happened at sectionals in high school and here it happened again.
This likely speaks to lack of control by the athlete, but I don't know the specifics, so maybe it's unfair to speculate. Perhaps an already difficult cut was compounded by another issue that prevented Decatur from working out properly, like an injury or illness.
I'm confident the coaching staff has a grasp on the issue, but it's discouraging they let it get to this point. Missing weight for a conference tournament just doesn't happen.
Believe he also missed weight at some open tournaments last year at Ohio State.
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Discussion Topic: A change is needed
Roe Fox added to this discussion on March 8, 2021
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I heard this afternoon it was not missed weight. I suppose we will find out for sure soon enough.
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Discussion Topic: A change is needed
Alex Creech added to this discussion on March 8, 2021
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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"i think Hoffman and Rocky are in their 3rd year, which if so, to me they aren't really "sophomores" experience-wise. Singletary his 4th year. Guys from that highly touted class 3 years ago should be hiting their stride now."
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yes, but i don't know that i count this season as a full season and rocky was injured his redshirt year and singletary last year.
rocky was not as highly touted (compared to others) so i'm not surprised where he's at. this really is his true sophmore year cause he was hurt his redshirt year. i think 6-8 is his ceiling for his career and may not aa at all.
singletary did go 2-2 at nationals his redshirt fresh year as HW. He was off to a good start last year before getting hurt for the year. i don't know why he dropped back down to 97. i'm always concerned about recruiting 220's, they seem like tweeners. so to be honest, i'm not shocked where he's at.
hoffman i thought would be farther along, but he showed flashes this year of being very good. he was stuck behind moore at his ideal weight until this covid shortened year. i believe he'll make a jump next year.
echmendia, while he is older, the dude has only been in the country a couple years and never wrestled folkstyle until then. i'm not sure how you learn AA style mat wrestling in 1 year.
decatur, i just don't know. was it the weight cut? has he lost all confidence? was he forced to go 133? this one is the real head scratcher. this is his true soph year and he seems like a guy that needs to be around coaches to keep his head straight, covid definitely hurt him
while we're at it, i know everyone loves demilio's effort, but i don't think he's measured up to his ranking either.
point is, it's fair to say none of these guys have measured up to their ranking out of high school, but i think there's more to it than just the coaching.
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