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Discussion Topic: Ohio RTC: Is the Plane Going Down?
Sean Koran added to this discussion on March 25, 2021
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Bill knows more about wrestling than I could ever hope to, and I 100% acknowledge that Tom+Lou clearly seemed to be a great combo. But to say that the "decline" of the OSU wrestling program is a result of Lou leaving seems misplaced (perhaps the RTC is another matter, though Snyder won a world title post-Lou in 17).
Lou has been at Oklahoma for 5 years now. In those 5 years OSU has finished 2, 2 (best team in school history), 2, COVID (likely finish between 2-5), 9. Meanwhile, Lou took a program that had produced 8 AAs (including 2 champs) in the 4 years prior to his arrival and has proceeded to have just 2 AAs in the 4 NCAAs contested since his arrival. Sure Oklahoma tied Okie State at B12s this year. At nationals Okie State was 3rd and Oklahoma was 24th. I really have a hard time thinking OSU would be doing significantly better had Lou remained.
I also know nothing about J Jaggers as a coach, other than that the OSU program has been highly successful during Jaggers tenure with the program. Whether that's in spite or because of him I do not know. My understanding is he works closely with Sasso, who is clearly OSU's top guy.
That being said, OSU has clearly slipped every year since that peak in 18. 9th place is not good enough for a program in this region, with the resources and facilities of OSU. Getting the Asst and RTC coaching hires right will be critical.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio RTC: Is the Plane Going Down?
Jared Ball added to this discussion on March 25, 2021
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I’m not on the “down on Jaggers” train. J was absolutely instrumental in Logan’s development and clearly has his hands on Sasso. You hear nothing but positive out of guys that he coaches. I don’t think you become an associate head coach of a major program with out some serious coaching chops. The program and the RTC are not cemented in concrete. This year was not a year that was up to the current standards of the program. Largely I think this just represents a transitional period in the program. Any thoughts about Dhesi leaving the RTC as well after the Olympics?
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Discussion Topic: Ohio RTC: Is the Plane Going Down?
Alex Creech added to this discussion on March 25, 2021
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Quote from Jeff Streu's post:
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"
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Quote from Bill Splete's post:
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"Jaggers, he can go... I have seen and heard enough and don't agree with what he says and does. "
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I'm not doubting you, I'm just ignorant: can you share an example?"
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Yes, I'd be interested in this as well. Particularly since Jaggers was coached by Lou.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio RTC: Is the Plane Going Down?
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 25, 2021
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Quote from Liam Bateman's post:
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"Observe:
For four years running J Jaggers has been called the finest dressed coach in the wrestling world. Not helpful to smith who’s trying to get off bottom.
Tervel has been coined the finest philosopher wrestler today. It doesn’t help that 85% of close matches that we lost this year. The philosophy has to change.
It’s time to be warriors with one mind, one purpose.
Enough.
Difference:
Casey Cunningham is quite possibly the best coach in the nation and nobody knows dick about him. There’s a reason for that. It’s calculated. It’s decided upon. It’s given up to the light in to the good for the whole. He chooses not to shine so that light may be given to others. That is what’s needed in this program to succeed and to push to the next level. If the coaches do not see this then that is their nearsightedness. Plato spoke about spiritual optics, it’s time we focus on a greater good.
I do not mean this to be over critical, but I have to speak my mind."
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I agree with you about many things you said -- except the criticism of tOSU's coaches here. Those things ARE said about them, but who is saying it? Are they saying it about themselves or are others saying it? If others are saying it, should Jaggers dress worse? Should Trevel change his coaching approach so he's less himself so they stop talking about them?
I could buy what you're selling if they promote themselves as these things -- but they aren't, or at least I haven't seen where they are.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio RTC: Is the Plane Going Down?
Jim Kessen added to this discussion on March 25, 2021
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This is from a 2016 Flo article
2016 wrestling club assets
Wrestling club Net assets
Nittany Lion Wrestling Club $5,824,799
Hawkeye Wrestling Club $717,173
Wolfpack Wrestling Club (N.C. State) $324,547
Ohio Regional Training Center $63,453
Terrapin Wrestling Club $21,014
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Discussion Topic: Ohio RTC: Is the Plane Going Down?
Don Bork added to this discussion on March 25, 2021
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One could also post Head Coach and staff salaries. Fact is results are all that matters. We have high expectations based on the last 5 to 6 years or more of achievements. Let’s not look for potential excuses why we can’t achieve. This program may well be at a crossroads. Where do we go from here?
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Discussion Topic: Ohio RTC: Is the Plane Going Down?
Scott Nicola added to this discussion on March 28, 2021
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Quote from Bill Splete's post:
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"Scott, yeah a better choice would have been Manning from Nebraska. Jarod, Reece is a young person that does get a great deal of respect from those that wrestled for him and has done a great job. Plus he comes from a great coaching pedigree in freestyle(Jim Humphrey). The question is would he consider it and what do they have in the budget to support his mission/vision. It's worth asking him, and begin the process of replacing Lou."
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I agree about Reece Humphrey. He has done really good things with the Rutgers RTC, is a Buckeye Alum, and brings some outside perspective. I disagree with the assessment of Jaggers as I think he is a good dude and has been instrumental in the Buckeye's success during the Tom Ryan era both as an athlete and a coach. As I type this it brings up the interesting question about do you need to have coaches that correspond with specific weight classes or does good technique trump that model. Initially this seemed to be the plan (Lou for lower weights, TR and Heskett for middle weights, Tommy for the big boys) but in recent years have diverged. Adding Stieber and/or Hump give you a room full of 141 coaches and no real upper or lower weight specialists.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio RTC: Is the Plane Going Down?
Bill Splete added to this discussion on March 28, 2021
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There are several situations that lead me to believe Jaggers is an issue from a leadership perspective. His wrestling IQ is not part of this opinion.
This is the one that stands out the most:
He talked about a very kind and gentle person in a way that is unacceptable, in a public place with many people around. Jaggers was an OSU coach at the time, and has a right to his opinion, but so do I, and what he said and how he said was truly unacceptable and unnecessary about a person that tried to help him.
Furthermore, I know how the RTC works, and it's not operating well. Tervel is right to leave. This is a business and culture is important. Jaggers is part of that culture. How many more people have to leave, on good terms, as they are good people, but they are leaving. Make a list of those that have left and if they believed this was the place for them to succeed, they would not leave.
I also accept that many of you, on the forum, have a personal and different opinion of Jaggers. It's appropriate that you defend him. I have strong opinions and am thankful for a forum to share/express them and accept that others won't and don't share my views, they are mine. The opinion of Jaggers is in relation to him being a head coach.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio RTC: Is the Plane Going Down?
Alex Creech added to this discussion on March 28, 2021
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Quote from Bill Splete's post:
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"
Make a list of those that have left and if they believed this was the place for them to succeed, they would not leave.
"
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You have first hand knowledge of the decisions of those that have left? Otherwise that's a massive assumption and simply not true. A chance to succeed is not the only factor when making life decisions and there are many places that offer that chance.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio RTC: Is the Plane Going Down?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on March 28, 2021
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Quote from Sean Koran's post:
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" Getting the Asst and RTC coaching hires right will be critical."
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if u are in favor of Logan you'll be pleased, hes gonna be both the head of RTC and on Ryans staff for the first time.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio RTC: Is the Plane Going Down?
Bill Splete added to this discussion on March 28, 2021
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Alex, your right about my assumption. and I don't know the athletes to make that far jump. I do have a little knowledge of their room and Penn states. They are very different rooms and people. I don't think Tervel or Logan are bad people but is the room the same as Cael, Cody, and Cunningham my opinion is no, it isn't close, and if you want to keep guys from their home towns beyond college it must be at that level, if not they will leave.
Think of the reasons they came to OSU to wrestle in college...that same reason isn't there to stay post-graduate at the RTC. There are better and seems well-funded opportunities outside of OSU. They all have love and respect for each other and leave on good terms, but they are still leaving while still training, This RTC business is tough and much harder than the college program to fund, maintain and attract talent. These are criticisms for sure based on my expectation of what a program like this should be competing at. Is it money, personnel, leadership, whatever it is the business of attracting and keeping athletes is going in the wrong direction?
I am a Buckeye fan and expect a level that, in my opinion, has been declining quickly and without objective analysis won't change.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio RTC: Is the Plane Going Down?
Alex Creech added to this discussion on March 28, 2021
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I gotcha Bill, maybe I misinterpreted you. It seemed you were placing all that ails the RTC and college room on one individual you don't care for.
Btw, you could take the PSU coaches and put them at tOSU and you would not replicate what PSU has.
I agree the RTC is the lightest it's been in a long time and the college program had 1 down year. They are well aware of it and I'm excited to see what happens to improve things, but I'm not sure that trying to emulate PSU is the answer.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio RTC: Is the Plane Going Down?
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on March 29, 2021
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Quote from Alex Creech's post:
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"...Btw, you could take the PSU coaches and put them at tOSU and you would not replicate what PSU has..."
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If you're saying that Coach Sanderson and his staff couldn't come into tOSU program tomorrow and make this team an instant NCAA championship squad, then I agree. But if you're saying at Coach Sanderson and his staff couldn't come to Ohio State and have the same success they've enjoyed at Penn State, then I completely disagree. Had Coach Sanderson gotten the Ohio State job instead of the Penn State job a decade ago, it would be the Buckeyes who would have won eight of nine National Titles.
Perhaps there would have been a little less success because Ohio is slightly less talented at the high school level than Pennsylvania, but being right next door, I bet Coach Sanderson would've been able to pull who he wanted from PA.
If the Penn State staff were to take over this program in it's present form, I think they would win the NCAA crown within three years and dominate the college wrestling landscape in similar fashion to the way they have at PSU. Just my opinion, but I'm wrong a lot.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio RTC: Is the Plane Going Down?
Mike Stann added to this discussion on March 29, 2021
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Quote from Michael Rodriguez's post:
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"
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Quote from Alex Creech's post:
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"...Btw, you could take the PSU coaches and put them at tOSU and you would not replicate what PSU has..."
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If you're saying that Coach Sanderson and his staff couldn't come into tOSU program tomorrow and make this team an instant NCAA championship squad, then I agree. But if you're saying at Coach Sanderson and his staff couldn't come to Ohio State and have the same success they've enjoyed at Penn State, then I completely disagree. Had Coach Sanderson gotten the Ohio State job instead of the Penn State job a decade ago, it would be the Buckeyes who would have won eight of nine National Titles.
Perhaps there would have been a little less success because Ohio is slightly less talented at the high school level than Pennsylvania, but being right next door, I bet Coach Sanderson would've been able to pull who he wanted from PA.
If the Penn State staff were to take over this program in it's present form, I think they would win the NCAA crown within three years and dominate the college wrestling landscape in similar fashion to the way they have at PSU. Just my opinion, but I'm wrong a lot."
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I’m also wrong often but we agree on this
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Discussion Topic: Ohio RTC: Is the Plane Going Down?
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on March 29, 2021
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Quote from Alex Creech's post:
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"...Btw, you could take the PSU coaches and put them at tOSU and you would not replicate what PSU has..."
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Alex...I'd be interested to hear your rationale for this comment.
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