|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: NFHS Proposed Rule Changes
Joe Boardwine added to this discussion on April 9, 2008
|
I guess I am not convinced that we even need 6 rule changes every year.
I am all for improving the sport - but honestly, I think Mike Taylor is correct - what does passing #35 actually accomplish for our sport? It's not even worth the meeting time spent on it. Do we really need one more thing for the official to have to look for and force him to reprimand the wrestler for getting that last second pep talk in the state semis?
Some of my greatest memories of wrestling are the words that were said to me by my coach in that brief window.
To me, the 51 suggestions is a symptom of a larger problem - it appears that the committee feels an
obligation
to come up with suggestions for rule changes every year to justify the reason for their meetings and existence as a committee.
Most of these issues are just over-regulation with little or no benefit to the sport if they are adopted - but potentially significant downside.
Preusse and Taylor are correct, IMHO.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: NFHS Proposed Rule Changes
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on April 9, 2008
|
|
Quote from Joe Boardwine's post:
|
|
"What does passing #35 actually accomplish for our sport? ... Do we really need one more thing for the official to have to look for and force him to reprimand the wrestler for getting that last second pep talk in the state semis?"
|
Obvious hostilities towards Shakespeare! Why I oughtta! <nunchucks>
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: NFHS Proposed Rule Changes
Mike Taylor added to this discussion on April 9, 2008
|
|
Quote from Mark Niemann's post:
|
|
"Obvious hostilities towards Shakespeare! Why I oughtta! <nunchucks>"
|
Et tu, Brute?
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: NFHS Proposed Rule Changes
Mike Taylor added to this discussion on April 9, 2008
|
|
Quote from Joe Boardwine's post:
|
|
"I guess I am not convinced that we even need 6 rule changes every year.
I am all for improving the sport - but honestly, I think Mike Taylor is correct - what does passing #35 actually accomplish for our sport? It's not even worth the meeting time spent on it. Do we really need one more thing for the official to have to look for and force him to reprimand the wrestler for getting that last second pep talk in the state semis?
Some of my greatest memories of wrestling are the words that were said to me by my coach in that brief window.
To me, the 51 suggestions is a symptom of a larger problem - it appears that the committee feels an
obligation
to come up with suggestions for rule changes every year to justify the reason for their meetings and existence as a committee.
Most of these issues are just over-regulation with little or no benefit to the sport if they are adopted - but potentially significant downside.
Preusse and Taylor are correct, IMHO."
|
I agree with your position that it appears like the committee feels the need/obligation to make changes... needed or not. If we want to make changes to high school wrestling that will be beneficial in the long run we need only look at the college rules, determine where we are different in high school competition, and then adjust accordingly. I believe we would have better prepared wrestlers for the college style if we didn't have significant differences between the two. Bring riding time back to high school, have the quick whistles from the referee position. We don't need to change the scoring...we need to have the same rules high school to college. Again, just my opinion. Take from it what you will.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: NFHS Proposed Rule Changes
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on April 9, 2008
|
Joe Boardwine nailed it, these NFHS guys are justifying their positions -- my advice: don't mess up a good thing. As I said previously they have too much time on their hands.
--------------------------------------------
Todd Vennis posts, "They should be looking at
reigning in
some of this tournament wrestling that really killing participation."
Todd, that makes no sense to me -- if you want more duals then schedule them, but alot of fans, coaches and kids love the tournaments -- a wrestler gets more matches in a tournament after a hard week in the room. In a dual you might not even get one match or you might face a vastly inferior opponent.
And what is meant by
"reigning in"??
We don't want the NFHS messing with our successful tournaments in Ohio. Thank God they don't have the power to anyway. Makes no sense.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: NFHS Proposed Rule Changes
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on April 9, 2008
|
Concur with former Coach Boardwine and others...
None of these rules changes make much sense.
I remember when Ohio went from awarding top 6 placement to 8. My thought was: why are we messing with a really good system?
The only major rule change I'd like to see: Eliminate the penalty point for a full nelson. No one does it on purpose. Call it potentially dangerous and allow the wrestler to adjust his half. Ironically, it's the one change not mentioned.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: NFHS Proposed Rule Changes
Todd Vennis added to this discussion on April 10, 2008
|
|
Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
|
|
"Todd Vennis posts, "They should be looking at
reigning in
some of this tournament wrestling that really killing participation."
Todd, that makes no sense to me -- if you want more duals then schedule them, but alot of fans, coaches and kids love the tournaments -- a wrestler gets more matches in a tournament after a hard week in the room. In a dual you might not even get one match or you might face a vastly inferior opponent.
And what is meant by
"reigning in"??
We don't want the NFHS messing with our successful tournaments in Ohio. Thank God they don't have the power to anyway. Makes no sense."
|
Bob, I gave my rationale in my original post. This tournament wrestling, while undeniably is creating some of the greatest wrestlers in the history of the sport, it is driving out the good athlete- who does not desire to be an elite wrestler but would come out to help the team and provide depth to the sport- because the time commitment in wrestling begins at 2:20 when the bus leaves on Friday night until midnight Saturday when you get back. We need to have more weeks in wrestling where it is practice Monday-Thursday, wrestle Friday night, and go out with the guys for pizza and chase the girls. Let them have some time to be kids. The athletes in other sports get to.
I will tell you a story that I think will provide insight to this. My dad was the Defensive Coordinator and Wrestling Coach at Warren G. Harding in the 1970's. He coached a young man named David Preston who went and started at ILB at WVU. He started 3 years on the teams that began WVU's rise into the football upper echelon. He wrestled for Harding because my dad asked him to come out and help the team. He did, and according to my dad went very far in the post season tournaments and had a lead on the state runnerup with 40 seconds to go. His son, attends Warren Howland, (good wrestling school) and doesn't wrestle. I told my dad this, he called Dave and asked him why? He tried to get his son to it was to time consuming these days.
I believe if we reigned it in, by cutting back a little, and just a little, we might start getting more of those kids out again. These are the kind of kids who would fill up those weight classes you, in this very thread, stated are thin.
As you know, I coached at Providence Catholic in Illinois during the 90's. A team that you ranked #1 briefly one season. I remember having an occasional free weekend for the kids to be kids. I advocate doing something similar to their scheduling system. Illinois is in the next tier of wrestling states behind OH/PA/IA. When I returned to Ohio, I felt wrestling was
healthier
in Illinois. Most teams had full JV, SO,and FRosh squads. The midlevel and bottom teams were far better off than they were in Ohio. Ohio had many more elite wrestlers and elite teams, in Illinois the sport was healthier. Chicago Lane Tech an inner city public school finished 4th in the dual meet state tournament one year.
My official proposal would be to allow 16-20 duals (However, you wanted to schedule them) and four tournaments (two one day/two two day)
What would happen is as follows:
1. Most tournaments would move to the pool format (particularly the one day tournaments)
2. Eventually participation would increase because wrestling would be back on campus and draw crowds for the neighborhood rivalries. Consequently, competition should improve because participation increases. I slightly disagree with your statement about fans. Americans love team sports. Most coaches don't know how team scoring occurs in how do we expect fans to. Except for Ironmen the fans that go to tournaments are only the hard core fans, who would go to anything. We need to expand our fan base. Sitting in the bleachers for 8 hours is not fun. Average sport Fans, who might give wrestling a try if it was more fan freindly, want to go to an event for a couple of hours.I have been to the Brecksville finals (the 2nd most important tournament) there are plenty of empty seats. I have two pictures Dave Craig gave me of the Mattuecci era teams at E. North. They are duals against Mentor and Maple Heights. The gyms were overflowing.
3. Our sport becomes harder to eliminate when budget cuts come. Do you think wrestling would have been dropped at Richmond Heights. if during the 80's they had the economic problems they had today when Papouras and Manos were filling the gyms against beachwood, Cuyahoga. Heights., etc. Basketball may have found the chopping block. Travel cost is less.
4. Under my plan the elite kids will still get 35-40 matches. That is enough. Plus many of those matches will be in dual meets where they are the only show for that 6 minutes and in front of a big crowd. The cross town kid may not be one of the elite, but I bet he will be a good enough athlete to give you a work out. Especially, with all the good coaches in Ohio.
I speak to the old timers who built this sport in the 60/70/80's as often as I can. I listen, I try to learn. What I hear is that a lot of them, particularly Mike Papouras, regret what they did to this sport by going to all these tournaments.
|
Last edited by Todd Vennis on April 10, 2008; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: NFHS Proposed Rule Changes
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on April 10, 2008
|
well Coach Vennis, u speak articulately. Ohio is fortunate a coach of your caliber moved to our state--- but you & i just disagree on this issue.
You post, "I have two pictures Dave Craig gave me of the Mattuecci era teams at E. North. They are duals against Mentor and Maple Heights. The gyms were overflowing."
Coach, that era is long gone
, at least its long gone in Eastlake, Mentor and Maple----
that era can never come back
just like Cuyahoga County as an industrial giant full of blue collar fully employed commmunities is long gone. Those were different times, we have a different culture now, families are different, fans think differently, kids think ALOT differently.
As an aside, personally, i'd like to bring back the Pro sports era of no free agency, no guaranteed contracts, the better Pro era i grew up in
when fan and player loyalty was the theme, but thats long GONE too.
Bottom line: every coach has the ability to schedule as he sees fit
, so stick to your schedule and let others do as they see fit. To say as you did that the bureauocratic NFHS should
"reign in"
tournaments is wrong--- we need less bureaucracy in America, not more, imo.
btw, the highest AWN had that outstanding
Providence Catholic Illinois
team ranked in 1999 was 4th or 5th, rather it was Illinois hometown hero Rob Sherrill who had them # 1. i do think that was a heckuva ProvCath team, though, but st Eds gym is very tough on first time visiters as it was on PC then. ---
ProvCath will be back in st Eds gym
on December 13 next season participating in the Super 8 Duals.
we will see if this excellent dual meet eventy can draw a crowd, fact is the past 2 years st Eds has brought top caliber teams from out of state along with St Paris in to their
Super 8 Duals and in terms of fans they havent drawn flies.
Coach Vennis its a different era--- in the era of 24/7 ESPN & internet people don't attend as much, an era when fans have become spoiled with many entertainment options. Example, the NWCA College duals at Cleveland St a few years ago didnt draw flies either, thats fact, i was there to observe it, it was embarrassing i thought but it is the way it is.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: NFHS Proposed Rule Changes
Mike Taylor added to this discussion on April 10, 2008
|
Todd, I think you bring up a good point when you elaborated. I, too, was curious about what you meant. The schedule I enjoyed as a senior had 4 regular season tournaments, a quad meet, 5 regular dual meets, and then the league tournament and beyond. That year, I had 37 matches before the state tournament. Like you said, that was pleanty. I did have weekends where I could relax (although to me relaxing was wrestling in a tournament...just couldn't get enough of it). Today, I see kids with 50 matches or more coming into the state tournament. I love tournaments because you get more matches with fewer weigh ins and if you do well you have something to show for it (more than just an improved record). However, it can be overdone. You bring up a good point that we may have forgotten that we are dealing with 14-18 yr olds who still need to enjoy their time in high school.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: NFHS Proposed Rule Changes
Todd Vennis added to this discussion on April 10, 2008
|
Civil debate... what makes America great.
The thing is I knew what we were getting into that night. We tried to prepare the kids. I still laugh about it with heff and Greg that that's the night they roll out all their banners from the previous season, introduce their new head football coach, I think they even enveiled the hockey state championship banner. There was a huge crowd that night. We actually had a student section. One of the priests and a couple of parents supervised a group on the Amtrak train. Bitter memory but a good one.
It always a good day when my man Keith Healy will be in C-town.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: NFHS Proposed Rule Changes
Dan Cosimi added to this discussion on April 10, 2008
|
Rules Changes I'd Propose...
1. Weigh-ins for the next day of a tournament may be done the night before on the previous day.
Reason: It is healthier and takes much less time.
2. Weigh-ins may proceed by teams.
Reason: Weigh-ins will go much quicker.
3. When starting in the referee's position, the top wrestler must put his far arm on the bottom wrestler's navel first, then put his near arm on the bottom wrestler's elbow.
Reason: It's easier to call for the referee.
4. Scoring and pinning can happen when any part of either wrestler is inbounds.
Reason: It promotes action.
5. A stalling penalty will be the opponent's choice of position.
Reason: A point is too harsh of a penalty for a judgement call.
6. A full nelson will stop action as potentially dangerous, not as a one point penalty.
Reason: PD corrects it just as quick.
7. All takedowns will be worth three points.
Reason: It promotes aggressive wrestling from neutral.
8. A wrestler will be awarded one point for each minute he rides his opponent. Note: This is not "advantage" time. A wrestler can get multiple points. Both wrestlers can get points.
Reason: Rewarding good top wrestling.
9. Near fall points will be awarded as: one point for two seconds, three points for three seconds, four points for five seconds.
Reason: Rewarding a turn.
10. A technical fall will be when a winning wrestler has an advantage of twenty or more points.
Reason: More points for moves means more points for a technical fall.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: NFHS Proposed Rule Changes
Mike Taylor added to this discussion on April 10, 2008
|
If we are looking to make rules that encourage aggressive, fan pleasing wrestling then one possible rule change we could make regarding the scoring of a match is make a takedown by way of a throw worth 3 points. All other takedowns are still 2. This encourages wrestlers to take some risk and try to incorporate one of the most crowd pleasing forms of takedown there is. So, they could potentially earn 6 points for a feet to back throw. Now, I must follow this up by saying I am not suggesting that I believe we change the rules simply to make it more appealing to the fans. Otherwise, why not allow folding chairs on the mat or DDTs? Exageration, but you get my point. Just another suggestion to kick around a bit.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: NFHS Proposed Rule Changes
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on April 10, 2008
|
2. Weigh-ins may proceed by teams.
Reason: Weigh-ins will go much quicker.
cant agree, Dan--- example Reno T of C starts weighing in at 6 AM, its a race for teams to get there earliest because teams weighing in at 6 & 7 AM get more hydration time than teams weighing in at 8 and 8:30 AM. Not fair.
For the first day at least, the wt by wt shoulder to shoulder weighin in we use at Ironman is fairest---- all 103s weigh in together, then all 112s, then 119s, etc. Levels the playing field, every kid in a weight class gets same hydration time before wrestling begins--- and this is overall just as fast.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: NFHS Proposed Rule Changes
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on April 10, 2008
|
What the emphasis on tourneys over duals has also done is drive away the fans. Especially the fellow students.
I attended Maple in the 70s and dual meets were a happening. All the kids would show up on a Saturday night for a few hours, there would be cheerleaders just for wrestling, and everyone at the school and in the community would support their team.
I now have a son wrestling, and NO students show up for an all-day tournament God knows where. No one has cheerleaders, you see very few fellow students from any of the schools there, not even very many casual fans there to support their community school.
The wrestling on the mat might be better than ever, or some will claim, but the "event" is just not the same.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: NFHS Proposed Rule Changes
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on April 10, 2008
|
"I attended Maple in the 70s and dual meets were a happening. All the kids would show up on a Saturday night for a few hours, there would be cheerleaders just for wrestling, and everyone at the school and in the community would support their team"
-------------------------------------------
yeh let's bring back the 70s,
but we cant
--- it was a different era, a different time, a different culture, America was different.
Maple Heights was ALOT different community in the 70s.
Dual meets today at most school don't draw flies. And its not tournaments that are "the fault". That makes no sense to say that. No one is forced to sit all day at a tourn, come & go as u please. Or don't go at all, better yet Coaches don't enter your team in tournaments.
High school coaches are free to schedule just duals ---whose stopping them ?? No one is stopping them. Just do it. If fans want duals and not tourn, they will come to duals and tourn will fail.
Its called
democracy
, u can vote with your feet and your dollars.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
