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Discussion Topic: NFHS Proposed Rule Changes
Pat Costilow added to this discussion on April 10, 2008
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I cannot support awarding a point per minute of riding time. What we see in collegiate wrestling is the rewarding of riding time points, which you support, turns mat wrestling into a form of doing what you can to avoid stalling calls while riding the opponent as long as possible. In many of these situations, no turn is attempted, but the top wrestler does enough to avoid stalling calls. Implementing a system that rewards points for riding time in high school would, IMO, lead to much of the same. It slow matches down and decreases action. Rewarding good top wrestling is one thing, but it decreases the action.
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Discussion Topic: NFHS Proposed Rule Changes
Dan Cosimi added to this discussion on April 10, 2008
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Quote from Pat Costilow's post:
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"In many of these situations, no turn is attempted, but the top wrestler does enough to avoid stalling calls."
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If no turn is attempted then the top wrestler
is
stalling. That's textbook stalling. If it isn't called, that's the referee's fault. Implementing this system only means we would reward the top wrestlers who actively work for a turn.
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Discussion Topic: NFHS Proposed Rule Changes
Anthony Windsor II added to this discussion on April 10, 2008
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I really don't approve with any of these rules...
The only one that i'd like to see is moving the weight class from 103 to 106... and that's only because it will make my life a whole lot easier!!! <smile>
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Discussion Topic: NFHS Proposed Rule Changes
Pat Costilow added to this discussion on April 11, 2008
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Quote from Dan Cosimi's post:
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"
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Quote from Pat Costilow's post:
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"In many of these situations, no turn is attempted, but the top wrestler does enough to avoid stalling calls."
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If no turn is attempted then the top wrestler
is
stalling. That's textbook stalling. If it isn't called, that's the referee's fault. Implementing this system only means we would reward the top wrestlers who actively work for a turn."
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Dan, to put this simply, do you watch college wrestling? Watch a few matches, what I described happens a lot; mostly with one wrestler trying to get the riding time advantage point. This slows down the match, decreases action. If each minute of riding time would be rewarded, this would only be heightened.
To put it simply, college wrestling doesn't need to move any slower.
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Discussion Topic: NFHS Proposed Rule Changes
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on April 11, 2008
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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""I attended Maple in the 70s and dual meets were a happening. All the kids would show up on a Saturday night for a few hours, there would be cheerleaders just for wrestling, and everyone at the school and in the community would support their team"
-------------------------------------------
yeh let's bring back the 70s,
but we cant
--- it was a different era, a different time, a different culture, America was different.
Maple Heights was ALOT different community in the 70s.
Dual meets today at most school don't draw flies. And its not tournaments that are "the fault". That makes no sense to say that. No one is forced to sit all day at a tourn, come & go as u please. Or don't go at all, better yet Coaches don't enter your team in tournaments.
High school coaches are free to schedule just duals ---whose stopping them ?? No one is stopping them. Just do it. If fans want duals and not tourn, they will come to duals and tourn will fail.
Its called
democracy
, u can vote with your feet and your dollars.
"
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I have no idea what Maple being a lot different now has to do with this, but obviously you are correct.
You clearly have some vested interest in the current system which it appears led to the liberal sarcasm. And next time you see Jamie, ask him his take on this.
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Discussion Topic: NFHS Proposed Rule Changes
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on April 11, 2008
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"You clearly have some vested interest in the current system --- --- ---"
Mr Sommer,
No, i don't have any vested interest at all--- apparently u refer to Ironman-- well fact is the Ironman tourn will continue to be a great great success as long as we bring in top teams & wrestlers from all over the nation, and as long a we have top guys like Ken Dies running the tourn on time, top refs, etc.
Whether duals are popular or not popular doesnt effect Ironman one iota.
If duals are what coaches, wrestlers and fans want then they will schedule duals (regardless whether Ironman or Brecksville or Medina, et all, exist or not.)
if a coach wants to do it then go ahead and schedule nothing but duals with your 20 points. I'm not aware that any one is standing in the way. Its fine by me. To each their own.
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Discussion Topic: NFHS Proposed Rule Changes
Todd Vennis added to this discussion on April 11, 2008
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First off, I would say that the only agenda Bob has in this is that he legitimately disagrees. If suddenly the wrestling world would magically change to my vision of it.
Bob Pruesse would continue to be a person who loves and espouses wrestling
, an influential writer for the best wrestling publication (Amatuer Wrestling News), and the Ironman Tournament would survive and draw the same calibre of competition. I don't believe there is any vested interest in it. However, for the purpose of continuing the discourse with him. (I would love to bring him into my camp on this- I truly believe under the current system the overall health of the sport of wrestling will continue to decline. I only slightly disagree with many of his points and agree with some.)
He is correct in stating that many premier events that feature dual meets aren't well attended. However, many of those feature teams from far off. Localism is very much still alive in Ohio. I would say that many good local dual meets still draw fans, even in Eastlake. We regularly have great crowds for our matches with Madison and South. Additionally, most years that the Mentor/Lake Catholic/Eastlake North triangular occurs it draws a very good crowd. Coincidently, now that the rising Painesville Riverside program has joined the event I expect it to be even better attended. I would argue that St. Edward's hosting a premier dual event and it not being well attended is not surprising. Fans have their own teams to follow. For example, Bob noted that my old school Providence Catholic is coming to St. Eds on Dec. 13th. I would love to attend that. To see great wrestling and to catch up with old freinds. I can't. I host a huge jv tournament that weekend.
Fan attendance was only a secondary part of my argument.
He may be right that we won't see the crowds of the 70's again. That is a premise I feel is worth testing. However, let's go on the premise that bob is 100% correct and say " We aren't going to ever get more of the mainstream sportfan's attention than we already have." OK that leaves our fanbase to be the hard corp wrestling fan who loves it so much they spend their freetime frequenting internet forums dedicated to wrestling and family of the wrestlers. Many family members don't come to these tournaments because they have to put meat on the table or as Bob says are the 24/7 internet society and don't want to commit 12 hours to their childrens athletic endeavors. Which is more family friendly a dual meet/tri/or mini quad (what I call the 4 team 1 scheduling point events) or a tournament that goes from 4-11 on Friday and 10-10 on Saturday?
The main part of my argument is that with the current system- where people try to maximize matches to make sure your elite wrestler gets enough good competition. We have driven good athletes out of the sport who would add depth to the sport. I stand by that.
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Discussion Topic: NFHS Proposed Rule Changes
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on April 11, 2008
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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""You clearly have some vested interest in the current system --- --- ---"
Mr Sommer,
No, I don't have any vested interest at all--- apparently u refer to Ironman-- well fact is the Ironman tourn will continue to be a great great success as long as we bring in top teams & wrestlers from all over the nation, and as long a we have top guys like Ken Dies running the tourn on time, top refs, etc.
Whether duals are popular or not popular doesnt effect Ironman one iota.
If duals are what coaches, wrestlers and fans want then they will schedule duals (regardless whether Ironman or Brecksville or Medina, et all, exist or not.)
if a coach wants to do it then go ahead and schedule nothing but duals with your 20 points. I'm not aware that any one is standing in the way. Its fine by me. To each their own."
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Understood, but all I can tell you is the tournaments we went to with my son's team this winter were FAR less attended than most any dual meet I was at in the 70s and 80s. And again, barely any students at all. I think some of the reasons, as I stated previously, are obvious.
Now if you think dwindling fan interest in the sport is good, then like you said to each their own.
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Discussion Topic: NFHS Proposed Rule Changes
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on April 11, 2008
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" We have driven good athletes out of the sport who would add depth to the sport. I stand by that."
--------------------------------------
thanks Coach Vennis,
BTW other factors have come into play here, a big one is
the specialization factor
--- to be a top wrestler in Ohio nowadays a kid has to devote most of his year to wrestling to the exclusion of other sports (unless he is a 215 or 285.) This drives outstanding athletes away from wrestling-- but specialization occurs in other sports too,
and its Not going away.
.
To expand on my opinion, the dual meet prospers best-- as u recognize--
in a local rivalry envronment between communities
. When the communities start to "die out", often its in terms of middle class hard working people --as many communities have and we know who they are-- then duals are not as important because community spirit dies..
Also in a dual meet
the very good wrestler often doesnt even get a match
after his hard week of work. The other team in a dual forfeits to him or moves their pretty good kid up a wt to get away from the top kid. This is not appealing to a top wrestler and never will be. I've got nothing against duals--- there is nothing better than a great dual-- but duals aren't the panacea some try to make them sound like they are unless its between competitive teams with their communities support.
My main point is let coaches decide individually
. Coach Vennis what i took issue with originally,
you were initially posting here about the Ntl Federation
"reigning in"
tournaments
which is frankly foolish talk, imo. Maybe you would like those words back, but that was in your original post. More bureaucracy in our lives? please spare us.
We have a system where coaches, kids and fans can make choices, let it work that way. The best choices will prevail and the bad choices will die out---- people in a democracy vote with their feet and their dollars, let it work. And i don't want bureaucrats telling our coaches how they should schedule.
To each their own
.
You admire the old timers, Coach Vennis, well as former great Cleveland St Joseph coach
John Story once said, "The cream will come to the top."
Think about that.
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Discussion Topic: NFHS Proposed Rule Changes
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on April 11, 2008
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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"" We have driven good athletes out of the sport who would add depth to the sport. I stand by that."
--------------------------------------
thanks Coach Vennis,
BTW other factors have come into play here, a big one is
the specialization factor
--- to be a top wrestler in Ohio nowadays a kid has to devote most of his year to wrestling to the exclusion of other sports (unless he is a 215 or 285.) This drives outstanding athletes away from wrestling-- but specialization occurs in other sports too,
and its Not going away.
.
To expand on my opinion, the dual meet prospers best-- as u recognize--
in a local rivalry envronment between communities
. When the communities start to "die out", often its in terms of middle class hard working people --as many communities have and we know who they are-- then duals are not as important because community spirit dies..
Also in a dual meet
the very good wrestler often doesnt even get a match
after his hard week of work. The other team in a dual forfeits to him or moves their pretty good kid up a wt to get away from the top kid. This is not appealing to a top wrestler and never will be. I've got nothing against duals--- there is nothing better than a great dual-- but duals aren't the panacea some try to make them sound like they are unless its between competitive teams with their communities support.
My main point is let coaches decide individually
. Coach Vennis what I took issue with originally,
you were initially posting here about the Ntl Federation
"reigning in"
tournaments
which is frankly foolish talk, imo. Maybe you would like those words back, but that was in your original post. More bureaucracy in our lives? please spare us.
We have a system where coaches, kids and fans can make choices, let it work that way. The best choices will prevail and the bad choices will die out---- people in a democracy vote with their feet and their dollars, let it work. And I don't want bureaucrats telling our coaches how they should schedule.
To each their own
.
You admire the old timers, Coach Vennis, well as former great Cleveland St Joseph coach
John Story once said, "The cream will come to the top."
Think about that."
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I thought this was high school sports. Dollars matter that much? They are the basis for everything?
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Discussion Topic: NFHS Proposed Rule Changes
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on April 11, 2008
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Money???
That's a saying: in a democracy, people vote with their dollars and their feet.
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Discussion Topic: NFHS Proposed Rule Changes
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on April 11, 2008
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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"Money???
That's a saying: in a democracy, people vote with their dollars and their feet."
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Bob, in general I understand perhaps even agree with that. But when it takes over amateur, high school sports I just find something wrong. I know it is how it is, but doesn't mean it is right or I should agree with it.
It reminds me of when SVSM whored out James and his gang of mercenaries just to make money for the school, I guess.
<ill>
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Discussion Topic: NFHS Proposed Rule Changes
Roe Fox added to this discussion on April 11, 2008
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I'm not sure saying that tournaments should be reigned in is necessarily foolish talk. It is just an idea on a forum.
That said, I really enjoy duals, like the Lake-Perry dual I go to almost every year. St. Ed's And Walsh ws fabulous in the 90s. They offer added excitement becasue of the team scoring, each match resulting in different team points being scored. Any team within six by the last match has a shot to tie or win on criteria.
Plus, you have guys that are great wrestlers, some very good and others who fill spots to try and stay off their backs and save a point or two (a specialty of mine).
Having said that, the tournaments like Ironman and Medina give everyone a chance to see great individuals. I just don't find the team scoring as exciting, particularly with the Ironman which allows partial teams.
Settle Bob, just my opinion. It is my favorite tournament.
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Discussion Topic: NFHS Proposed Rule Changes
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on April 11, 2008
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That is all I thought it was, but then I got jumped for saying it.
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Discussion Topic: NFHS Proposed Rule Changes
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on April 11, 2008
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Quote from Roe Fox's post:
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"I just don't find the team scoring as exciting, particularly with the Ironman which allows partial teams.""
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Hmm, Mr. Fox, well, to each their own, but that statement is hard for me to understand. So much is roll of the dice anyway - where you are seeded, who is injured, who gets upset.
Every team has to navigate the brackets, whoever is in them.
-- No. 1 kids in the nation lose every year at the Ironman, that's not exciting?
Ironman is usually
for the mythical national title
, plus it's the only tournament where Blair Academy gets any competition at all for the team title -- and the last 4 years we've had super team races among the nation's best teams, with Blair actually losing the last 2 Ironman tournaments. --
You say that's not exciting to you?
WIN magazine editor Mike Finn came for the first time this season and wrote glowingly of the team race, the high school atmosphere, the level of comp. Ironman was on the cover of WIN and several articles inside. -- But everyone has their own opinion.
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