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Discussion Topic: SH-T!
Bill Splete added to this discussion on August 24, 2008
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All great points. I would like to add a little to the conversation. First I would like to thank NBC for being able to watch preliminary matches for the first time in history. It was truly awesome, these guys are warriors. When I was in high school training and the exposure to freestyle was not even close to what it is now. Let's not worry about freestyle or folkstyle, neither are in need of fixing. There are 12 months in a year and I believe wrestling folkstyle is a big help to freestyle and these are my reasons.
1. Conditioning: Folkstyle demands it and you will not win at the elite level unless you can go at 100% the entire match. Henry was far and away the best conditioned athlete in his weight class and it probably made a big difference in all his matches.
2. Control: In folkstyle you are rewarded for control (takedowns, turns, etc.) and in freestyle you are rewarded for intiation. I think that the focus on control in folkstyle helps to maintain good position in attacks and finishes.
3. We have some elite wrestlers coming down the pike, David Taylor, Logan Stieber, Hunter Stieber, and Chris Phillips. I don't care what they wrestle these guys are the next generation of wrestling because they are well rounded in all styles, but they have all the things to be great at all levels. they never stop on the mat, or off wether it be freestyle or folkstyle its dedication that makes them great.
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Discussion Topic: SH-T!
Ken Ramsey Sr. added to this discussion on August 24, 2008
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Dan:
Agree with some/disagree with some; the 3 point takedown would be a great idea if it included exposure to back, and not giving penalty points by giving a position choice would be a great idea if it included 3 periods on your feet (This would make folkstyle very similar to the old freestyle and much more exciting for fans.) College wrestling needs to do away with the most boring aspect of wrestling; riding time. Even the clowns from WWF realize that action causes fan excitement and you don't see MMA including riding time in their matches. Both WWF and MMA events draw considerably more fan support than amateur wrestling because of the action they promote (Even though I would not pay to see either.)
The new freestyle is laughable at best and needs to return to the sport of the early 1980s to regain it's fan and competitor base.
I can't agree with you at all on officials calling stalling. Stalling rules are very clear in the rule book, but are so inconsistently called by the officials. It does not matter, when, where, who or at what time stalling happens, it needs to be called immediately when it happens. Officials should do their job and not be concerned what calling stalling does to the outcome. That would do more for making wrestling more exciting than any rule changes.
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Discussion Topic: SH-T!
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on August 24, 2008
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Quote from Dan Cosimi's post:
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"Another counterpoint I've heard is that referees will get an itchy hand and call stalling just because a wrestler is winning and not doing much - especially at the state tournament. First of all, I'm not sure that's true. For the most part, referees are good about that. Sure, you'll get one here and there but let's be honest, could that happen on the international scene in freestyle? (YES!)"
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For those coming to Ironman, December 5 & 6, watch the refs a bit, too.
Sandy Cageao
is our Head Ref, he was inducted into the
National
Wrestling Hall of Fame in Oklahoma (for officials) about 8 years ago. They only induct ONE per year. Sandy deals
personally
with coaches that have complaints. Sandy tells me there are very few complaints.
Very little stalling is called relative to other high school events, the wrestlers themselves decide who wins.
Why is little stalling called? We emphasize to new (and old) teams -- especially out-of-state teams -- prior to each years Ironman that
our refs WILL call stalling, that their wrestlers need to be aggressive
and apparently they are aggressive.
Also our refs, most of whom are from Ohio, have learned over the years to let the kids decide the match
.
The Pennsylvania coaches can be notoriously critical, but the Reynolds PA coach has told me Ironman has the best officiating he has ever experienced -- and Class AA power Reynolds comes every year.
So, bottom line, if the refs are high caliber and the teams themselves know stalling can and will be called
if warranted
-- and the overall caliber of wrestlers is high -- it makes for great wrestling, less referee involvement and the entire experience can be fair and positive for everyone.
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Discussion Topic: SH-T!
Dan Ransick added to this discussion on August 24, 2008
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In my trips to Ironman I have seen nothing but top-class refs. They are the definition of professionalism and they let the wrestlers decide the match and do not involve themselves in the match unless warranted.
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Discussion Topic: SH-T!
Ken Ramsey Sr. added to this discussion on August 24, 2008
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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"For those coming to Ironman, December 5 & 6, watch the refs a bit, too.
Sandy Cageao
is our Head Ref, he was inducted into the
National
Wrestling Hall of Fame in Oklahoma (for officials) about 8 years ago. They only induct ONE per year. Sandy deals
personally
with coaches that have complaints. Sandy tells me there are very few complaints.
Very little stalling is called relative to other high school events, the wrestlers themselves decide who wins.
Why is little stalling called? We emphasize to new (and old) teams -- especially out-of-state teams -- prior to each years Ironman that
our refs WILL call stalling, that their wrestlers need to be aggressive
and apparently they are aggressive.
Also our refs, most of whom are from Ohio, have learned over the years to let the kids decide the match
.
The Pennsylvania coaches can be notoriously critical, but the Reynolds PA coach has told me Ironman has the best officiating he has ever experienced -- and Class AA power Reynolds comes every year.
So, bottom line, if the refs are high caliber and the teams themselves know stalling can and will be called
if warranted
-- and the overall caliber of wrestlers is high -- it makes for great wrestling, less referee involvement and the entire experience can be fair and positive for everyone."
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Very little stalling is called... the wrestlers themselves decide who wins... ??? How can the wrestlers decide the outcome if the officials avoid the rules and allow either wrestler to stall? The rules do not allow stalling and they should be called the same way every second of the match. That would allow the best wrestler the chance to win the match and the officials would do their job as the rule book states not their interpretation of the rules.
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Discussion Topic: SH-T!
Dan Cosimi added to this discussion on August 24, 2008
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Ken:
He means there isn't any excess stalling calls, not that they avoid calling it altogether. It is an all-star crew at the Ironman.
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Discussion Topic: SH-T!
Ken Ramsey Sr. added to this discussion on August 25, 2008
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Quote from Dan Cosimi's post:
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"Ken:
He means there isn't any excess stalling calls, not that they avoid calling it altogether. It is an all-star crew at the Ironman."
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Dan:
I understood what he is saying, but my point is that stalling is stalling whether it is being called excessively or not. It is only excessive if the wrestlers are stalling excessively.
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Discussion Topic: SH-T!
Dan Cosimi added to this discussion on August 25, 2008
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Quote from Ken Ramsey Sr.'s post:
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"It is only excessive if the wrestlers are stalling excessively."
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In an ideal world, yes. Stalling is stalling and it would be called the same way for a dual meet in December as it would be for the state semifinals in late February. The reality of it is that it is not called the same way. The stalling rules are enforced much more stringently at the state tournament. That's how it has been for a long time. Ideally, I think, we should strive for consistency and I think we've gotten much better at it recently, but it still is the case.
As for what Bob was saying... he thinks, and rightfully so, that there have been times in the past that the stalling rules had been enforced over-stringently at the state tournament (big match time). The referees have learned from that and now know from experience when it is correct to call and not call stalling and it shows in big matches, such as at the Ironman.
Hopefully that makes more sense.
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