|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Updated Amateur Wrestling News Prep 40
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on January 12, 2009
|
AWN updates college and high school team and individual usually weekly on www.amateurwrestlingnews.com AWN college editor Ron Good is the dean of college rankers, about 30 years now (Northeast Ohio's Dan Fickel of WR USA magazine has been at it a long time, too.)
AMATEUR WRESTLING NEWS PREP 40 January 12, 2009
1. Blair Academy N.J.
2. St. Paris Graham Ohio
3. Apple Valley Minn.
4. Central Dauphin Pa.
5. Northampton Pa.
6. Central Mountain Pa.
7. Wyoming Seminary Pa.
8. Christiansburg Va.
9. St. Mark Del.
10. Simley Minn.
11. Huxley Ballard Iowa
12. Brandon Fla.
13. St. Edward Ohio
14. Blue Mountain Pa.
15. Wadsworth Ohio
16. Massillon Perry Ohio
17. Montini Catholic Ill.
18. Reynolds Pa.
19. Cumberland Valley Pa.
20. Buchanan Calif.
21. Clovis Calif.
22. Park Hill Mo.
23. Hastings Minn.
24. Wausau West Wisc.
25. Wisconsin Rapids Wisc.
26. High Point N.J.
27. Collins Hill Ga.
28. Roseburg Oreg.
29. Grand Island Neb.
30. Iowa City West Iowa
31. Poway Calif.
32. Lake Stevens Wash.
33. Tulsa Union Okla.
34. Havre Mont.
35. Billings Skyview Mont.
36. Sturgis S. D.
37. Don Bosco Iowa
38. Waverly-Shell Rock Iowa
39. Long Branch N. J.
40. Goddard Kans.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Updated Amateur Wrestling News Prep 40
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on January 12, 2009
|
Bob:
With seven top 40 schools, does PA have the best talent in the nation this year?
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Updated Amateur Wrestling News Prep 40
Mike Taylor added to this discussion on January 13, 2009
|
When I was in high school, the school I went to didn't schedule the national powers for a dual meet. Instead we went to a lot of tournaments. Now that I coach out here in Iowa, I see what a lot of dual wrestling can show you. I never experienced the kind of firepower a nationally ranked team can bring. We wrestled both Ballard-Huxley and Waverly Shellrock on the same day (back to back matches in fact) this past December. Talk about a beating of biblical proportions...and we aren't a bad team. Ballard has 5 returning championship finalists in their lineup. It showed. I'm sure some of you are used to facing such deep competition, but I am not. I faced a lot of outstanding individuals, but I never faced an outstanding team. Quite a painful thing to watch when you are on the receiving end, but there is a certain amount of joy that exists in watching really good wrestling...even if it is at your teams expense.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Updated Amateur Wrestling News Prep 40
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on January 13, 2009
|
"Bob: With seven top 40 schools, does PA have the best talent in the nation this year?"
yes they do,
ALOT of talent in PA right now
, a super JUNIOR class. i know at AWN we are ranking alot more PA kids than any other state--- i havent counted but i'm guessing
Ohio might be a distant second, Iowa and yes Missouri too also has a heckuva load of talent too, as does NJ which always does. NY is up there fairly high, too. Michigan and Minnesota are coming on.
Illinois is down some, California is down some. Oklahoma just aint what it used to be.
----------------------------------------------
Mike Taylor,
Re Iowa teams
, last season # 4 Waverly-Shell Rock, # 9Iowa City West and # 28 Huxley Ballard all were top national teams.
This season ICW and Waverly aren't near as good, both took severe beatings at the very rugged Clash dual meet tourn so feel lucky u didnt dual them LAST season
--- the Clash is where st Eds lost 2 close matches and finished 6th a week ago.
Huxley is Iowa's best team now, possibly a top 10 national team. Don Bosco is a disappointment, a great on paper Iowa small private school but got its head handed to them at the Clash. But in Iowa DB is a power.
Had your team been in Ohio and recently dualed back to back Wadsworth, st Eds and/or Massillon Perry i am sure your pain would have been similar or even greater.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Updated Amateur Wrestling News Prep 40
Mike Taylor added to this discussion on January 13, 2009
|
|
Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
|
|
"Had your team been in Ohio and recently dualed back to back Wadsworth, st Eds and/or Massillon Perry I am sure your pain would have been similar or even greater."
|
I agree. I saw Wadsworth just handed St. Eds another loss at the State Duals. One thing I wish Ohio would change is their approach to the State Duals Champion. I like how South Carolina and Iowa (those are the only other states outside of Ohio that I'm familiar with) determine their state dual champion. Every team has a shot at the title. The dual tourney begins in late Jan/early Feb and progresses until we get to the final 4. We then have the state dual meet and hold 2 more dual meets...the semi's and the finals (championship and 3rd place). The only thing I don't like is the state dual finals are AFTER the individual state tournament. What are your thoughts on revamping the way Ohio determines it's state dual champs, Bob...or anyone else?
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Updated Amateur Wrestling News Prep 40
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on January 13, 2009
|
Mike T,
ok by me, but there just hasnt been alot of interest frankly. ---PA too has a true state duals chamionship, starts late January and ends mid February i think, every team in PA gets a shot.
a factor to the indifference in Ohio is almost every year no drama, st Eds and before them Walsh Jesuit not just won, but dominated state Div I duals--- and in Div II of course there isn't any competing vs SPG and SPG not going away, so i think that diminishes enthusiasm.
but in Ohio i think the top teams that actually do have a chance to win it in each Division do get in annually, so while its not an official OHSAA event, it is accurate i think as to determing who is the Team dual champion.
another factor, i think in these other states it counts against Team points, while in Ohio participating teams do Not have it count against their 20 points.
Like most everything in life, its more complicated than initially meets the eye.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Updated Amateur Wrestling News Prep 40
Mike Taylor added to this discussion on January 13, 2009
|
|
Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
|
|
"
Mike T,
ok by me, but there just hasnt been alot of interest frankly. ---PA too has a true state duals chamionship, starts late January and ends mid February I think, every team in PA gets a shot.
a factor to the indifference in Ohio is almost every year no drama, st Eds and before them Walsh Jesuit not just won, but dominated state Div I duals--- and in Div II of course there isn't any competing vs SPG and SPG not going away, so I think that diminishes enthusiasm.
but in Ohio I think the top teams that actually do have a chance to win it in each Division do get in annually, so while its not an official OHSAA event, it is accurate I think as to determing who is the Team dual champion.
another factor, I think in these other states it counts against Team points, while in Ohio participating teams do Not have it count against their 20 points.
Like most everything in life, its more complicated than initially meets the eye.
"
|
Hmmm. I didn't know the duals didn't count towards the participating team's points in Ohio. Tell me, are the teams still determined based off of the performance of the underclassmen from the previous year? If I remember correctly, that's how it was done when I was in high school. My team missed it by 1 point. We would have made the state duals my senior year if our 103 lb had won his sectional conso semifinal match the year before that he lost in OT.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Updated Amateur Wrestling News Prep 40
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on January 13, 2009
|
To continue this point about the Ohio State duals...the biggest problem in this state is the number of teams that don't have full lineups. Ohio has a lot of programs but how many of them are actually strong? Wrestling in the Cleveland area is the weakest I've ever seen it esp. with Eds not as dominant. Name one really good public school squad in the Cleveland area. I can't think of one. Mayfield? Twinsburg? Mentor? Strongsville? Are there any better public programs in the Cleveland area?
There's not much interest in expanding the state duals because there aren't that many teams that care alot about them. Just my two cents.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Updated Amateur Wrestling News Prep 40
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on January 13, 2009
|
right Hank, almost no one has any depth nowadays, consequently not many good dual meet teams in Ohio--- its different than what was 20 and 30 years ago esp in Cleveland area, i've said this for years. (Of course Cuyahoga County population is down 1/3 since 1970, too.) --its a problem in Pennsylvania too.
maybe the sport is too tough, to be good have to wrestle over 1/2 year, not just seasonal ??
maybe its cultural
, the way kids & parents think nowadays ?? After all even high school FOOTBALL numbers are down nationally.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Updated Amateur Wrestling News Prep 40
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on January 14, 2009
|
Bob: HS athletics reflect what's happening in society. We have an ever increasing number of students in public schools that are incapable of functioning within a traditional environment. This reflects the breakdown in traditional family. My children now attend private school--not that I can afford it--because the kids that attend this particular school come from solid homes with structure and discipline. Just the way things now are.
We see it in wrestling--which has a lot of bad programs and a few super ones.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Updated Amateur Wrestling News Prep 40
Mike Taylor added to this discussion on January 14, 2009
|
|
Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
|
|
"Bob: HS athletics reflect what's happening in society. We have an ever increasing number of students in public schools that are incapable of functioning within a traditional environment. This reflects the breakdown in traditional family. My children now attend private school--not that I can afford it--because the kids that attend this particular school come from solid homes with structure and discipline. Just the way things now are.
We see it in wrestling--which has a lot of bad programs and a few super ones."
|
I was discussing a similar issue with my dad just the other day. However, it was in reference to the number of pins we are seeing today vice a few years ago. I remember when getting pinned was considered the ultimate insult to a wrestler. Now, it is almost common place to see even state level wrestlers give up a pin here and there. I'm not saying I was never pinned. I was...4 times over 4 years in high school and off season wrestling (all of them as a freshman and 2 of them were by the same guy). However, when I bought in to the fact that you can still lose with pride only if you've fought with everything you had, I stopped giving up pins. Oh, I was thrown to my back more than once even as I got older, but my dad taught me to fight even when the chips are down. He taught me that even if there is no possible way for you to win that match, you still don't give up the pin. That lesson seems to have been lost on today's wrestler (in general).
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Updated Amateur Wrestling News Prep 40
Todd Vennis added to this discussion on January 14, 2009
|
Well, I have to tell you that expanding the current duals and approaching the OHSAA about having the OHSAA team state champion determined by duals is on the agenda for the next OHSWCA association executive meeting.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Updated Amateur Wrestling News Prep 40
Mike Taylor added to this discussion on January 14, 2009
|
|
Quote from Todd Vennis's post:
|
|
"Well, I have to tell you that expanding the current duals and approaching the OHSAA about having the OHSAA team state champion determined by duals is on the agenda for the next OHSWCA association executive meeting."
|
Hmm. Good info. Thanks Todd.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Updated Amateur Wrestling News Prep 40
Jeff Sitler added to this discussion on January 14, 2009
|
It has been a while since I spoke with my former coach in PA, but yes every team in PA has a chance, but you have to have a certain number of WINS once the Duals tournament starts. So there is a "qualifier", but basically it is you must have won a certain number of matches. I don't even think you had to have had a winning record, just have enough wins, but I will see if I can find the criteria required.
First come the district duals... you win or finish 2nd (in some districts) you move on to the state duals
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Updated Amateur Wrestling News Prep 40
Mike Taylor added to this discussion on January 14, 2009
|
|
Quote from Jeff Sitler's post:
|
|
"It has been a while since I spoke with my former coach in PA, but yes every team in PA has a chance, but you have to have a certain number of WINS once the Duals tournament starts. So there is a "qualifier", but basically it is you must have won a certain number of matches. I don't even think you had to have had a winning record, just have enough wins, but I will see if I can find the criteria required."
|
That is a fair way of doing it as well. That does not discriminate against teams who had a large group of inexperienced kids the year before but have all worked their tail off in the off season and are much better this year. Just give every team an equal shot at the team duals title. Agreed that St. Paris Graham would run away with the Div II title for many years, but who cares? How great would it be for a small program to be able to say they were a state duals semifinalist or state duals runner up? That would be huge for many schools, even if they did get waxed by SPG. Besides, for a good number of wrestlers, that may be the only state tournament they get to compete in. It would be good for all in my opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
