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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on February 5, 2010
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Why does high school wrestling have divisions? It is an ultimate individual sport, and whether any particular boy comes from a school of 200 or 2000 is not particularly relevant. He is on the mat alone, and the size of his school's enrollment does little if anything to help him during competition the way it might in football, soccer, basketball, etc. where there are multiple athletes on the field/court at the same time interacting with each other.
It is not even that the crowning of a "team" champion in Columbus is a true representation of the strength of the team where size of school could be a factor. As an example, by all indications St. Ignatius will place very highly this year at the state tournament, but clearly they are not a very good "team" in terms of dual meet performance. So will placing, let's say 4th for discussion, mean they are the 4th best D1 team in Ohio? No, not based on dual meet performances this season.
Just wondering what others think.
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Roe Fox added to this discussion on February 5, 2010
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Gary:
When I first saw your post topic I thought, "uh oh. . ."
Good subject. I think it touches on one of the big issues right now as to who is number 1 in the country, Apple Valley, SPG, or Blair. A great dual team doesn't always win tournaments and a great tournament team doesn't always win duals.
As far as the State Divisions, it has always been assumed the bigger the school the more talent potential to draw from. Probably dicated more by football than anything else. Even basketball (yuck) generally has better teams at the bigger schools, except when St.V had LeBorn, of course.
But you are right: in wrestling, no one else is there for you when you are on the mat, regardless of the size of your school.
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Joe Boardwine added to this discussion on February 5, 2010
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I would like to see Ohio consider a true dual meet state tournament that includes (until they lose and are eliminated) every team in the state of Ohio at the beginning, and begins around the late December or early January. The finals would be the week before or after the individual state tournament.
Pennsylvania does this with great success and the final team duals held at the Giant Center in Hershey, PA are not only very exciting, they are very well attended.
I believe this even has contributed to many positive things in Pennsylvania wrestling including:
1) giving the lay person a simple way to follow wrestling and their home school ("our school wrestles "x" tonight - the winner advances in the state series and the loser is eliminated - please come support us"
2) valuing the team-concept for both coach and athlete - so as to encourage more athletes to participate and fill weight classes (and bring their parents and friends to matches). coaches have that extra motivation to make sure they have a strong body in each weight
3) making each individual competing in a program understand their season matters (even if they can't qualify for state, they might get a huge pin in a state-level dual)
4) giving middle level wrestlers more exposure to opportunities to prove themselves on a state level (for college coaches)
5) rewarding coaches and coaches who can develop not only their very best, but their average wrestlers into athletes who enjoy the sport, and compete well. This is a positive benefit for wrestling in the state overall
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
John Ice added to this discussion on February 5, 2010
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A school with 200 might only have 10 kids go out for wrestling, only 3 wth any talent and the 285 has no one to practice with all year. A bigger school might have 50 kids out and 40 of them are good and practice partners are plentiful, Might make a difference. Just one angle.
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on February 5, 2010
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"I would like to see Ohio consider a true dual meet state tournament that includes (until they lose and are eliminated) every team in the state of Ohio at the beginning, and begins around the late December or early January. The finals would be the week before or after the individual state tournament."
Joe,
This has been discussed at the monthly GCWCOA meetings. It doesn't look likely for 2011 according to what we were told last Tuesday but does look like 2012 will be the year. I want to stress that, as of now, nothing is concrete ( least of all the format) but the state coaches association is working toward this goal.
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Jack Muni added to this discussion on February 5, 2010
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I have to agree with John, it seems to be about numbers. Bigger schools, bigger pool to find quality kids (nobody has told the people of Monroeville that theory, however !!! )
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on February 5, 2010
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Quote from Jack Muni's post:
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"I have to agree with John, it seems to be about numbers. Bigger schools, bigger pool to find quality kids (nobody has told the people of Monroeville that theory, however !!! )"
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True, in a true team sport. But once any one particular boy steps out on the mat he is alone regardless whether he comes from Mentor or is home-schooled. The Mentor boy has little if any advantage over the guy from Berkshire based solely on their school size.
I suppose an argument could be made that the larger the school then perhaps the better the program and facilities. But tell that to a wrestler from Euclid competing against a boy from Chanel or Cuyahoga Heights. Much larger school, MUCH worse resources.
I would make the same argument in Track and Field and Swimming. Both extremely individual sports where the "team" championship is only based on the relatively few athletes who make it to states and not on the merits of their entire teams.
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on February 5, 2010
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not a new subject, has been debated often over the years-- i been saying it for decades. It is an indiv sport, like track, wouldnt u like to see the states best sprinters take on each other at state?? after all the best 119 or the best 100 yard dash sprinter could be from a very small town. The best 125 is, Monroevilles Logan Stieber.
the way it is now most coaches like the 3 Div because with 3 Div they get more kids to state, thats what they think anyway but i have another way .
But it deprives fans, example in year 2000 if one Div, had 4 GREAT kids at 119: Harry Lester in D3, C.P. Schlatter in D2, and in D1 Mason Lenhard and Joe Pflug. Who was THE state champ?? Semis could have been matches for the ages !!!!
i like California, one class with a 64 man bracket at state, they don't fill it up but Calif has more than 32 per wt at state. Ohio could have 64 man bracket or 32 man bracket at state with one class.
TEAM trophies could be determined as they are now by enrollment. Could still have 3 team first place trophies. s/BobP
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Ben Golden added to this discussion on February 5, 2010
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Bob I like that idea a lot as a fan. 64-man bracket means MORE people get to make it to state, and matches would be incredible starting around the quarter finals.
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on February 5, 2010
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Joe: Excellent post. You see the sport through the prism of what's best for the kids.
While this may be an old topic, it's new in that circumstances have changed. The major reason for having three divisions used to be that larger schools--in theory--have more kids wrestling. Hence, they have an advantage on smaller schools. Now, however, that's less true. In 2010, strong programs exist primarily in communities which value the sport. If you have a strong youth presence in your community, the high school program tends to have talent. Otherwise, the high school program usually stinks. There's less middle ground than there used to be and the middle school/jr high to high school feeder system really doesn't function well.
In the past, I've supported the idea of having three divisions but now I'm not so sure that those divisions should be based on population. Maybe it should be like hockey in greater cleveland where the division in which you compete is based on your talent.
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Ben Golden added to this discussion on February 5, 2010
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"Maybe it should be like hockey in greater Cleveland where the division in which you compete is based on your talent."
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What does that do to drive teams to improve? If my high school competed against Jr. High teams only, they would probably do well, but they wouldn't have anyone to push them. How does this work in Cleveland Hockey?
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on February 5, 2010
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"Bob I like that idea a lot as a fan. 64-man bracket means MORE people get to make it to state, and matches would be incredible starting around the quarter finals."
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yep Ben,
ive proposed this for many years, but ha, ha, ha, no surprise, no one cares about my opinion. i think it makes perfect sense. Still award TEAM trophies by enrollment, same as now, but let's see WHO THE individual state champion in each wt is. Would be many more SUPER matches.
Right now, face it, we have with 3 Div some DULL finals matches-- theres 84 kids in the finals. Would be almost no dull matches or at least would be pretty rare, with one Division and only 14 champs but 112 placers.
Right now Ohio places 336 wrestlers--- think about it, 336 PLACERS !!!
as it is Ohio crowns 42 states champs each year--- and some states crown 56 or even 70 state champs including some small population states !! way way too many, imo. i think its gotten out of control. s/BobP
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Pat Costilow added to this discussion on February 7, 2010
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Doesn't the OTCA do the extended state dual tournament that Joe mentioned for high school tennis? At least from my understanding, it is somewhat similar.
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on February 15, 2010
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btw, for those who are anxious for Ohio to have a true OHSAA sanctioned dual meet championsips, Pennsylvania held their finals this weekend and my reports are a max of 3,000 per session attended over 2 days. That was the "announced" attendance, a figure always exaggerrated.
only 3,000 per session in Hershey's Giant Center where they hold the state tourn -- and weather was no factor. Maybe Ohio should have it, but its a big money loser if its in the Schott or even St. John arena.
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
John Taylor added to this discussion on February 16, 2010
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Why not keep the qualification similiar to how it is now. Each Div. goes through their same qualification process just like now. Give each div. 21 qualifiers in their respective division. (maybe 1 wild card) That way the small schools are still getting the same amount of kids to the State tournament. Then when you get to state you can put them all in one 64 man bracket, so you get a true state champion. You can keep team points seperated by division so you can still have Division team champs. I think this would be the best way to do this and then not alot would have to be changed. The schott would be filled every session instead of just in the finals, which to me makes it a more exciting experience. Right now each session only has that divisions fans there and it takes away from he experience to me. What do you guys think?
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