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Discussion Topic: Logan Stieber (Ohio State) v. Jordan Oliver (Oklahoma State)
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on December 22, 2011
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Logan Stieber of Ohio State is set to face defending national champion Jordan Oliver of Oklahoma State. Thoughts?
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Discussion Topic: Logan Stieber (Ohio State) v. Jordan Oliver (Oklahoma State)
Jason L. Jackson added to this discussion on December 22, 2011
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My perspective is that Oliver will be able to take Stieber down. I don't think he'll be able to ride him though.
I think Stieber will be able to take Oliver down as well. I don't think he'll be able to ride him though.
If Oliver's gas tank isn't up to par, Stieber will make him pay late.
I'm taking Oliver in the first meeting, 7-6, and Stieber in the NCAA finals, 6-5.
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Discussion Topic: Logan Stieber (Ohio State) v. Jordan Oliver (Oklahoma State)
Jack Muni added to this discussion on December 22, 2011
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I think 133 is a 3 man race. Oliver's match with Ramos on Jan. 7 will give us an idea how Stieber will fare against him. I think Ramos' skills are very close to Logan's. Will Ramos be able to take Jordan down? How long can he ride him? Will Jordan tire as he did at the All-star meet, if Ramos puts lots of pressure on him? Should be an interesting prelude to the Stieber/Oliver match. One thing I know is that Logan has wrestled the best in the world, so intimidation won't be a factor. He's beaten former NCAA champs in FS, one more won't matter to him.
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Discussion Topic: Logan Stieber (Ohio State) v. Jordan Oliver (Oklahoma State)
Ben Golden added to this discussion on December 23, 2011
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Here's something I posted on the subject a few months ago, most of which holds true today.
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Quote from Ben Golden's post:
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"I think it will be very interesting. Both are superlative on their feet.
As far as I can tell, Logan has scored at least one takedown on EVERYONE he's wrestled since his high school career began (probably going back a couple years into junior high, too, but I have no record of that). I think we all know he has wrestled some superb wrestlers. Freestyle takedowns can be different than folkstyle takedowns, but not the way Logan wrestles. So most of his takedowns against senior level competition would count in folkstyle as well.
Jordan Oliver was simply dazzling on his feet last year. Some of the takedowns he scores, I don't even know how to describe with words, but he makes them look perfectly artful and routine. Also, I can't think of a single time he was taken down all last year. It may have happened, but not that I know of. He is so quick and slick that there hasn't really been anyone who has the reflexes to reacted to his offense quickly enough to defend.
Logan is so offensively minded that he is prone to give up a takedown every now and then, so I'll give Oliver the edge on their feet. But it's too close to call. If either of them gets an early takedown and rides the other for most of the first period, that person does himself a huge favor. The time you're on top is time the other dynamo can't spend taking you down.
Both are very good at riding and turning. Oliver has proven more that he's able to hold a guy down. Again, Logan is so focused on scoring that he sometimes gives up an escape that he could prevent by being more conservative. But that's his style and it works for him. He turns pretty much everyone. But I haven't seen enough of him in college folkstyle to know if he has a chance to turn a guy like Oliver.
I guess I can see Logan's extreme offensive mindset leading him to give up some critical points. But he's at his best when he's attacking, and he's damn good at it.
So, I think the fact that Logan gives up more points gives Oliver the edge until we see more evidence, but I definitely think Logan has a chance to win."
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Oliver has pinned pretty much everyone he's wrestled this year in first period with a cradle. Such quick victories make it difficult to see any weaknesses or if he has any other good turns.
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Discussion Topic: Logan Stieber (Ohio State) v. Jordan Oliver (Oklahoma State)
Mike Hojnacki added to this discussion on December 23, 2011
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I think the analysis so far is pretty accurate. Both guys are super dynamic on their feet and absolute hammers on top. What we might see play a factor in this match is bottom wrestling. Neither guys have spent much (if barely any) time in the bottom position this year. Against a formidable oppoenent in the neutral position, I think the mat wrestling could play a big factor.
This is my favorite weight this year. Only one guy can stand at the top of the podium, and that means some very tough hombres will just be All-Americans. Can't wait to see it pan out!
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Discussion Topic: Logan Stieber (Ohio State) v. Jordan Oliver (Oklahoma State)
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on December 26, 2011
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I'm surprised by how many people outside Ohio are writing off Stieber as having a chance. Stieber is currently 16-0 with 12 victories by either pin or TF. His only two decisions have come against Devin Carter and A.J. Schoop and neither match was very close.
Oliver is a spectacular wrestler but I am certain that Stieber can beat him. Not saying he will...but he can.
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Discussion Topic: Logan Stieber (Ohio State) v. Jordan Oliver (Oklahoma State)
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on December 27, 2011
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Hank: your last line sums up my position.
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Discussion Topic: Logan Stieber (Ohio State) v. Jordan Oliver (Oklahoma State)
Marlo Stanfield added to this discussion on December 27, 2011
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I certainly think he can beat Oliver, anyone can get beat on any giving wrestling mat, but I don't think he will. I just think Oliver is too good on all positions and excellent on his feet, for Stieber to win when it counts. That's why I think Hunter will win a national championship first, if he doesn't redshirt next year of course.
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Discussion Topic: Logan Stieber (Ohio State) v. Jordan Oliver (Oklahoma State)
Jim Kessen added to this discussion on December 27, 2011
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Quote from Marlo Stanfield's post:
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"I certainly think he can beat Oliver, anyone can get beat on any giving wrestling mat, but I don't think he will. I just think Oliver is too good on all positions and excellent on his feet, for Stieber to win when it counts. That's why I think Hunter will win a national championship first, if he doesn't redshirt next year of course."
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I agree that Oliver is good in all positions but don't you think Logan is good in all positions?
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Discussion Topic: Logan Stieber (Ohio State) v. Jordan Oliver (Oklahoma State)
Rex Holman added to this discussion on December 27, 2011
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Oliver is ahead in terms of being a collegiate strategist. His overall collegiate game is a little more polished than Logan's. He is more likely to be able to influence the match in a direction that steers it away from Logan's strengths. However, Logan has some terrific power attacks which result in takedowns against the very best. The key to Logan winning his match up will be finishing on Oliver. I have no doubt that Logan's attack will land him in deep position on a leg but Oliver is very adept at playing the counter game and the edge for that matter which makes it difficult to finish any leg attack. I think it really benefits Logan if they meet up prior to NCAAs so that he can get a feel for the specific challenges which Oliver presents for his style. I think Logan wins if he is successful at creating enough of an advantage off his shot to ensure a clean or semi clean finish. I don't have an opinion of mat wrestling between the two but I think it is likely that their skillsets cancel each others out.JMHO.
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Discussion Topic: Logan Stieber (Ohio State) v. Jordan Oliver (Oklahoma State)
Patrick Campbell added to this discussion on December 27, 2011
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Quote from Rex Holman's post:
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"Oliver is ahead in terms of being a collegiate strategist. His overall collegiate game is a little more polished than Logan's. He is more likely to be able to influence the match in a direction that steers it away from Logan's strengths. However, Logan has some terrific power attacks which result in takedowns against the very best. The key to Logan winning his match up will be finishing on Oliver. I have no doubt that Logan's attack will land him in deep position on a leg but Oliver is very adept at playing the counter game and the edge for that matter which makes it difficult to finish any leg attack. I think it really benefits Logan if they meet up prior to NCAAs so that he can get a feel for the specific challenges which Oliver presents for his style. I think Logan wins if he is successful at creating enough of an advantage off his shot to ensure a clean or semi clean finish. I don't have an opinion of mat wrestling between the two but I think it is likely that their skillsets cancel each others out.JMHO."
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Well said.
Jordan Oliver is just a different kind of wrestler than Kellen Russell. And although Hunter knocked off Russell, it is a much different challange for Logan to knock off Oliver. On the upside for Logan, I think he believes he can beat Oliver. I think he will approach the match that way. And as I have said before, I think that is a significant part of the battle for any college wrestler. On the downside, he will have some significant difficulty in setting Oliver up for takedowns (unlike anyone else he has faced this season), but as Rex indicated, I think if he gets in he will finish.
To me it comes down to the fact that Logan will have to wrestle (nearly) flawless against an opponent that generally wrestles flawlessly. I don't think we'll see a blow out type of match if Logan looses, but an experienced wrestler of Oliver's calibur is always capable of nailing you the way David Taylor was nailed in the finals last year. Let's face it, David was of equal calibur to Bubba (and probably better in some facets of his game), but he made his biggest mistake of the season against the absolute worst opponent to do so. That is the challange that Logan faces. Can't wait to see it and I hope Logan blows our minds with a performance that brings us to the realization that he is even better than we thought ;)
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Discussion Topic: Logan Stieber (Ohio State) v. Jordan Oliver (Oklahoma State)
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on December 27, 2011
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I think Logan Stieber is amazing. I think when it's all said and done, he'll be the greatest wrestler to ever wear a Buckeye singlet. I think he'll win titles (plural) and I think he'll be dominant.
Unfortunately, in Jordan Oliver, he faces someone who is every bit as good as he is, every bit as physically gifted as he is, but with a couple extra years experience. They're very different wrestlers in their approaches, but they are equally effective. Oliver is just slightly ahead in his development due, in large part, to his spending two years on the college mat and in college room with a coach that fits him perfectly.
Oliver has always had that low-single/Oklahoma St. style, but this year he seems to have really embraced his coach's techniques, motion and strategies. Smith and Oliver seem to be as good a coach/wrestler combo as there has ever been. They remind me a lot of Brands and Gable. How in the end, Brands was "Iowa-Style" personified. Oliver is becoming that for Smith. Smith has had some great ones, but I'm not sure any of his champions have embodied his style as well as Jordan Oliver. If you go over to Flo and watch the 2011/2012 version of Oliver, all you have to do is squint your eyes a little and you'd swear it was John Smith himself out there hitting 1 second takedowns (although I would like to see Oliver hit more of Smith, High-C stuff). This is almost blasphemy coming from me, as I am as big a John Smith fan as there is.
I think Oliver vs. Stieber this year will be similar to Brands/Fried of '91 and '92...great matches, but the winning wrestler was the older, wiser and better defending champion. This isn't one of those Ohio State hating kind of posts. I'd be OK with being wrong on this one.
Some of videos I watched before posting:
High School All Star vs. Matt McDonough (impressive)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5ogsZJLZnk&feature=related
Junior Worlds:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8irYWIQ5wY&feature=fvst
Junior World Bronze match:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVbtdmrp3JQ&feature=fvst
NCAA Tourney vs. Mike Grey:
http://www.flowrestling.org/speaker/1034-Jordan-Oliver/video/479033-Mike-Grey-L-Jordan-Oliver-Oklahoma-St-10-2
NCAA semis last year:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8d4z_7qRXo&feature=related
This year, notice how much more "Smith-like" he seems:
http://www.flowrestling.org/speaker/1034-Jordan-Oliver/video/543990-133-lbs-finals-Jordan-Oliver-Oklahoma-State-vs-Zach-Zehner-Wyoming
And here (WOW):
http://www.flowrestling.org/speaker/1034-Jordan-Oliver/video/536616-133-lbs-match-Jordan-Oliver-OSU-vs-Derek-Geiges-OU
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Discussion Topic: Logan Stieber (Ohio State) v. Jordan Oliver (Oklahoma State)
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on December 27, 2011
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Mike R: You cited "sources"! I'm loving the fact I can watch the same vids and draw conclusions.
Thanks for including them.
You and Rex both make similar statements. Wise comments, indeed.
Oliver's biggest problem this season may be the lack of formidable comp he's faced. It's not going to prepare him for anyone like Logan. The only other guy out there to offer him a challenge is Ramos--who I think Oliver will hammer.
Logan and JO could see each other at National Duals.
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Discussion Topic: Logan Stieber (Ohio State) v. Jordan Oliver (Oklahoma State)
Rex Holman added to this discussion on December 27, 2011
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Looks like JO has picked up the pace at which he wrestles(which is a byproduct of mastering the technique and confidence)
Scouting him, his attack is pretty straight forward with his go to moves as Low shot R (no tie), Head inside single R (from an inside tie)and a shuck on the L. It is brutal because he is attacking both sides rapidly and the techniques are complementary.
Logan typically has a L lead leg which means that JO primary leg attacks are not set up for immediate attack. Thus he is going to have to create a lot of motion to try and get Logan to overcommit and step hard R, It is going to be interesting to see how that battle plays itself out.
Oliver is L lead leg dominant as well. So, it is kind of like having two southpaws going at it. That could slow things down but both these guys are so aggressive in their showings so far that it is unlikely.
As in most cases with highly skilled wrestlers it will likely come down to who makes the first mistake because there won't be but one or two.
Thanks for posting those Mike, it makes data retrieval so much easier.
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Discussion Topic: Logan Stieber (Ohio State) v. Jordan Oliver (Oklahoma State)
Ethan Moore added to this discussion on December 27, 2011
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Question about Logan - how is his defense on his feet? It is so rarely tested that I am not sure if he is a good scrambler, typically he is always on his opponents legs.
If there was a ranking for best pound for pound - where would these two be ranked? It is tough to calculate for Logan since he has not wrestled a full season. But I would say something like this: (absolutely my opinion, obviously)
1. Dake
2. Oliver
3. Taylor
4. McDonough
5, Simaz
6. Stieber
7. Ruth
8. Hamlin
9. Molinaro
10. Russell
I know everyone on the national level would want to omit Logan from this top 10 since he has yet to place, but I think this is justified.
My point in reviewing/discussing overall rankings is 133 is one of a very few classes where we have two transcendent talents competing for a national title, and I may be overlooking the outstanding Ramos. For me this is the match of the season.
Logan, and Ramos for that matter, should look to slow the pace and wear on Oliver. His cardio has always been in question, as I believe 33 is a steep cut. If Logan is within a few points heading into the 3rd, I believe he will beat Oliver.
The issue could be having the semi with Ramos.
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