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Discussion Topic: Riding Time
Jim Kessen added to this discussion on March 18, 2012
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Watching Natioanls with my brother and we started talking about riding time and he liked it and I don't mind it but think it could be tweaked a little. I would like to see it changed that riding time only starts when you score a TD, Reversal or back points. I just cant stand when someone starts out on top and racks up riding time for doing nothing. Any way just my opinion and curious to see what others think.
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Discussion Topic: Riding Time
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 18, 2012
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Quote from James Kessen's post:
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"Watching Natioanls with my brother and we started talking about riding time and he liked it and I don't mind it but think it could be tweaked a little. I would like to see it changed that riding time only starts when you score a TD, Reversal or back points. I just cant stand when someone starts out on top and racks up riding time for doing nothing. Any way just my opinion and curious to see what others think."
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I'd like to see ref's start calling stalling more aggressively once the one minute RT has been established.
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Discussion Topic: Riding Time
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on March 18, 2012
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Quote from James Kessen's post:
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"Watching Natioanls with my brother and we started talking about riding time and he liked it and I don't mind it but think it could be tweaked a little. I would like to see it changed that riding time only starts when you score a TD, Reversal or back points. I just cant stand when someone starts out on top and racks up riding time for doing nothing. Any way just my opinion and curious to see what others think."
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What a genuinely original and interesting idea! I can see pros and cons to it but you've really looked at the problematic end of it and come up with an interesting and innovative solution.
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Discussion Topic: Riding Time
Steve Lester added to this discussion on March 19, 2012
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I'll stick my neck out:
The thing I dislike is the accumulation of riding time, when too often, a wrestler has "control" but is not riding per se. I've seen matches where more than half of a 2 minute period has the bottom wrestler on his feet, or up on one foot, but never quite getting the escape.
Same thing in high school, only riding time isn't tracked. See Bright-Cisneros Ironman semi where Cisneros "rode" Bright for 2 minutes yet actually had Bright "on the mat" for about 20 seconds of that time. Action kept going out of bounds with the "top" wrestler in control of one ankle.
I know it's counter-intuitive, but I'd like to see an escape awarded when the defensive wrestler goes out-of-bounds, even in overtime rideouts. Visualize where the bottom wrestler either has to escape OR get out of bounds. What do you guys think?
Couple this with more agressive stalling calls, from the neutral position, for backing out of the center circle when NOT in contact with the other wrestler.
I know both would be pretty big changes and unintended consequences are possible. Also other issues do arise (TDs on the edge, etc.).
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Discussion Topic: Riding Time
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on March 19, 2012
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I agree that there is a big difference between riding to turn, riding just to ride, and no longer in control with no loss of control either. That's what makes this an interesting conversation.
But...if you start increasing the stall calls on the feet, it becomes a disaster. Stall calls are problematic because the ref's judgement becomes too big a factor in the scoring.
Some guys would excel at pushing guys backward just because of their build. Should they get points for it?
Some guys are much better at leg attacks than others. Leg attacks are not the only way to secure takedowns yet increased stall calls will always benefit leg attack specialists. Cam Tessari just finished 4th in the nation--but he's not yet a fluid leg attack guy.
I've seen way too many kids lose big matches because of judgmental stall calls that didn't need to be made.
College refs do a good job because they don't overuse the stall call.
Let the action decide the outcome.
Trust me...you don't want more of them.
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Discussion Topic: Riding Time
Mark Palumbo added to this discussion on March 19, 2012
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How can you have riding time and stalling. Pick one! Why don't they say you get a point if you can stall on top and not get called for it. oh wait, they do.
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Discussion Topic: Riding Time
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on March 19, 2012
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"College refs do a good job because they don't overuse the stall call."
Respectfully, I have to somewhat disagree. College officials don't use stall calls, as often, because of riding time. After all, it would be very difficult to make a stall call (especially in that first minute) when there is something to be gained.
There is no reason to think that college officials are inherently better as officials. People are people. They simply use a different set of rules. I will tell you that some guys are actually better at calling a college match BECAUSE they never call stalling in HS.
IMHO, the biggest difference is that (for the most part) college guys are actually riding and working toward something. In HS, the official has to determine whether the wrestler is working toward something, just hanging on, or absolutely clueless. Since many of you are coaches, you know the difference. You just hope the official doesn't!
Please take this as just the thoughts of one person. I can live with whatever rules are in place but I can assure you, there will always be people on the other side. As an example, look at the new "fleeing" vs "stalling" rule this year. It wasn't clear as to when it should be called, it didn't really make a lot of sense, and guys simply didn't call it. I didn't watch anywhere near all the matches last weekend but I didn't see it called at all. That was pretty much what I expected.
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Discussion Topic: Riding Time
Rex Holman added to this discussion on March 19, 2012
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I really like the idea of awarding an escape if wrestlers go out of bounds at first glance, would have to think about it more. I have always hated that the guy on bottom works so hard to get to their feet and the top man gets to react and do very little to salvage the situation.
Also, Jim makes a good point of understanding what you are seeing. The inside wrist ride is getting abused as a stalling tactic. Saw it by more than one wrestler. Kellen Russell was on Hunter's wrist with weight on him doing very little and Hunter got called for stalling. Nearly impossible to improve position on bottom once established. That position is deceiving in appearance.
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Discussion Topic: Riding Time
David Rourke added to this discussion on March 19, 2012
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My thoughts exactly on the "Russell ride". It's esentially the same as hanging on an ankle in that your not going to get a turn from either.
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Discussion Topic: Riding Time
Patrick Campbell added to this discussion on March 19, 2012
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Quote from James Kessen's post:
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" I just cant stand when someone starts out on top and racks up riding time for doing nothing. "
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I think we should put you on the mat with Logan Stieber and let him be on bottom. Now, you do everything you can to keep him down and try to turn him for 1 minute. If at the end of that you are successful (meaning he does not get an escape or reversal) and you can honestly characterize your 1 minute of time as "doing nothing," we will petition to have riding time changed as you suggest ;-)
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Discussion Topic: Riding Time
Jim Kessen added to this discussion on March 19, 2012
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Quote from Patrick Campbell's post:
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"
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Quote from James Kessen's post:
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" I just cant stand when someone starts out on top and racks up riding time for doing nothing. "
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I think we should put you on the mat with Logan Stieber and let him be on bottom. Now, you do everything you can to keep him down and try to turn him for 1 minute. If at the end of that you are successful (meaning he does not get an escape or reversal) and you can honestly characterize your 1 minute of time as "doing nothing," we will petition to have riding time changed as you suggest ;-)"
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Set it up and let me know when and where.
I admit nothing was probably the wrong word to use but I'm assuming most know what I mean but next time I will be more careful with what words I use ok Gary (LOL).
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Discussion Topic: Riding Time
John Ice added to this discussion on March 19, 2012
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I have had a thought that if you don't score back points you don't get riding time point.
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Discussion Topic: Riding Time
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on March 19, 2012
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Oooooh!!! The slander of all slanders!!! He called him Gary!!!!!
ps: My iPhone Dictionary app word of the day is "carp". a verb... to find fault or complain querulously or unreasonably.
Now THAT is funny!!! And ironic...
Now to go find out what querulously means...
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Discussion Topic: Riding Time
Patrick Campbell added to this discussion on March 19, 2012
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The only difference I will beg in reference to the Gary comment is that I was discussing wrestling and not slandering tOSU. Gary does not even know what riding time is, let alone how to make an intelligent comment about it.
In any event, I agree that there could be some tweeking of the riding time criteria, but you scared me a little there when you said "nothing." It's a heck of a lot more than nothing, even if you are stalling.
And seriously, do you just want to say you were on the mat with Logan, or...do you think you might be able to swing the riding time against him? ;-)
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Discussion Topic: Riding Time
Jim Kessen added to this discussion on March 19, 2012
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Quote from Patrick Campbell's post:
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"The only difference I will beg in reference to the Gary comment is that I was discussing wrestling and not slandering tOSU. Gary does not even know what riding time is, let alone how to make an intelligent comment about it.
In any event, I agree that there could be some tweeking of the riding time criteria, but you scared me a little there when you said "nothing." It's a heck of a lot more than nothing, even if you are stalling.
And seriously, do you just want to say you were on the mat with Logan, or...do you think you might be able to swing the riding time against him? ;-)"
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First off I want to apoligize for calling you Gary and second I think I could hold him down but unfortunatly or thankfully we will never know.
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