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Discussion Topic: Should Lance Palmer redshirt next season?
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on January 20, 2008
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Here are the reasons why this move makes sense.
--Lance gets a year off to work on areas that need improvement. He's been starting since his true frosh season; while he's done very well, it's obvious he could be even better. He needs to become more proficient at generating offensive scores against top flite opponents. He also could become better on bottom. He's not really explosive in this position although he's usually out--eventually. His defense and top position are his strengths. But if the goal is to win an NCAA title, he needs more ways to score.
--Brent Metcalf is a sophomore with no redshirting options. Dustin Schlatter is a junior who is likely never to redshirt. I also think Dustin will move up to 157 after C.P. graduates. Either way, these two guys are the biggest obstacles to Lance winning the nationals. Metcalf in particular looks to be a guy that may be close to unbeatable for the next few years. If Lance redshirts, Metcalf would be gone for his senior season; if he doesn't, he's going to have to contend with him for his last two years. Sitting out a season boosts his chances of winning an NCAA title in 2010.
--It helps Jaggers and Humphrey. There is no doubt in my mind that both of these guys would wrestle better if they moved up a weight class. Plus, OSU could slide Will Livingston into the 133 slot. Losing Lance for a season removes a quality wrestler from the lineup but increases the odds of Hump and Jaggers becoming AA's. Yes, it's possible that the current configuration--Hump@ 133, Jags @141, Palmer @149-- could all AA this year. But I see the same problem with Jags and Hump that I saw with J.D. at 197. J.D. could still do well in tourneys but in duals he was only 75% of himself. It's obvious that J.D. is enjoying not cutting a huge amount of weight and is wrestling with passion. College wrestling is hard enough without making a huge cut each week on top of it. I'd love to see Jags back to full throttle for his senior season.
--Some people have speculated that Lance could move up to 157 but I don't think it's wise. He's short guy at 149. At 157, he's a dwarf. I don't see how he competes with big 157s as they'll ride him into the ground on top. Besides, Sean Nemec is a serious talent and perfect for this weight.
--I think the lineup would still be solid. Triggas, Livingston, Hump (who would be better), Jags (more energy), Nemec/Johnstone, Sponsy then Pucillo. I don't know what will happen at 174, 197 and 285 but there will be options. Essentially, Livingston replaces Palmer in the lineup. That may seem like a downgrade but the Bucks will probably get better production out of the guys that are now at more suitable weight classes.
These are strictly my opinions of course. I've written everything as if it were fact. It's not. I'm just observing from the cheap seats.
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Discussion Topic: Should Lance Palmer redshirt next season?
Pat Costilow added to this discussion on January 20, 2008
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It is an interesting proposition to say the least.
If this would happen,
125- Triggas
133- Livingston
141- Humprey
149- Jaggers
Jaggers would be a senior, and graduate, with Lance coming back as a redshirt junior to take the spot back.
2009-2010
125- David Taylor (A guy can wish, can't he)
133- Triggas/Livingston
141- Humprey as a RS Senior
149- Lance Palmer RS Junior, with Collin Palmer redshirting
157- Nemec RS Sophomore
165- Sponseller Junior
174- Still no answer in the wings
184- Pucillo RS Senior
197- Weakley Junior/ Magrum RS Freshman
285- Morrison RS Senior/ Hiles RS Freshman
I think it would solve the weight problem. By that I mean that we have a few guys at the wrong weights. Reece should be a 141, Jaggers should be a 149 (both are cutting too much, IMO), Johnstone should be a 149. We have three guys who should be 149's, and obviously only one of them is. This would alleviate that problem at two weights, and, sadly, I don't see Johnstone starting next season, so there is all three.
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Discussion Topic: Should Lance Palmer redshirt next season?
Ben Roerig added to this discussion on January 20, 2008
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Wasn't the word that Magrum would go 174 next season?
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Discussion Topic: Should Lance Palmer redshirt next season?
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on January 20, 2008
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Ben: I doubt Magrum gets there. I think Pucillo could actually make the weight and be effective but that's not likely either. There are always a few talented seniors at each weight that are not well known nationally. I expect the Bucks to find one of these types of guys for 174.
Pat: You failed to mention Tony Jameson when discussing the Bucks future lineups. I think he's a great talent. We'll see how he transitions to college but don't forget about him. Personally, I think he's got a bit of "senioritis" although his two losses this year were to great wrestlers.
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Discussion Topic: Should Lance Palmer redshirt next season?
Pat Costilow added to this discussion on January 20, 2008
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Hank: I just don't think that as a RS Freshman (I am assuming that Jameson will redshirt based on the nature of his style, he will need time to adjust) could beat 5th year senior Humphrey.
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Discussion Topic: Should Lance Palmer redshirt next season?
Dan Cosimi added to this discussion on January 20, 2008
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Recruiting is far from finished but here's a look at what the Buckeyes have going into next year.
125
Nikko Triggas (So-2) - Returning Starter
Bo Touris (Fr-2)
Pat Zamaria (Fr-2)
133
Reece Humphrey (Jr-4) - Returning Starter
Will Livingston (So-3)
Owen Schaefer (Sr-5)
Pat Harrington (Fr-2)
141
J Jaggers (Sr-5) - Returning Starter
Keaton Thompson (Fr-1) - Redshirt
149
Lance Palmer (Jr-3) - Returning Starter
Tony Jameson (Fr-1) - Redshirt
157
Jason Johnstone (Sr-5) - Returning Starter
Sean Nemec (Fr-2)
Brendan Beucler (Fr-2)
Tyler Meek (Fr-2)
165
Colt Sponseller (So-2) - Returning Starter
Robel Campbell (So-2)
Ross Ambrose (Fr-2)
174
Cody Magrum (Fr-1) - Projected Starter
Casey Finnicum (Fr-1) - Redshirt
Jon Savia (Jr-4)
Jeremy Sanders (Fr-2)
184
Mike Pucillo (Jr-4) - Returning Starter
Wes Bergman (Sr-5)
Dom Mehling (Sr-5)
197
John Weakley (Fr-2) - Returning Starter
Zack Weinrich (Jr-4)
Jason Cook - (Jr-4)
Jacob Hale (Jr-4)
285
Corey Morrison (Jr-4) - Returning Starter
John Hiles (Fr-1) - Redshirt
Jesse Campbell (Fr-2)
Eric DiAgosta (Fr-2)
Zach Stolarsky (Fr-2)
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Discussion Topic: Should Lance Palmer redshirt next season?
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on January 20, 2008
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Hank...Whether Magrum gets there or not is certainly up for debate, but I
know
the Ohio State staff expects him to be there.
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Discussion Topic: Should Lance Palmer redshirt next season?
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on January 21, 2008
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Mike: I believe you. I'm just thinking that at some point they're going to have to recognize that shrinking wrestlers isn't such a good idea. If Magrum has the weight to lose and can still wrestle effectively at this weight class, it would be great for the squad. Can he?
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Discussion Topic: Should Lance Palmer redshirt next season?
Mark Palumbo added to this discussion on January 21, 2008
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It seems staying healthy, eligible and being the starter all 4 years is rare. Strange things happen in the room, people roll, things break. If your healthy, I say wrestle. You never know, you could be walking down the street and get hit by a bus (God forbid), but you never know. Save the redshirt for if you need it.
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Discussion Topic: Should Lance Palmer redshirt next season?
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on January 21, 2008
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Mark: You have a great point. You never know when someone is going to get hurt, sick, quit, etc....Happens all the time. Bucks have been lucky so far to have had only one significant injury--Spons wrist/hand.
Also, the fact is that Palmer is an incredibly productive starter. Does he want to sit a year? Would he be willing? Does it help your program in the long run? Or does it hurt your team?
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Discussion Topic: Should Lance Palmer redshirt next season?
Scott Nicola added to this discussion on January 21, 2008
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I heard alot about DiAgosta in early season open tournaments. A Pin against Campbell in the prelim wrestleoff and against Guhn at an open raised some eyebrows. With his size, athleticism, and another year of work he could challenge the top candidates at Heavy.
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Discussion Topic: Should Lance Palmer redshirt next season?
Cliff Cahill added to this discussion on January 21, 2008
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let's wrestle - why not get it done this year and thus focus on today
there was only a small edge that gave it to Iowa - Bucks already beat the previous #1 - unfortunately the small edge seemed systemic in the team for the Iowa Dual - yet at Wisconsin there was fire throughout the dual
So why not just come out and talk about this year openly.
I only see one weight class that has regularly displayed an underpower and that is Reese and it has shown up in spades more than once - I never have seen any lack of fire from Reese, quit the opposite, so he is not gassing because of his weight control routine. He simply does not belong at 133 given his current style . Did you notice Iowa having anyone with Reese built in any weight class. So what do you do. Well you do not start the wait to next year or start re-designing the team at beginning of Big Ten season that is one thing you do not do. I suggest you find a strategy that matches Reese power situation and matches his talented set of technique moves and be damn sure they are the only ones on display in any of his future matches. And you do not see anymore this year any strategy or wrestling situations that require his power to finish a move. John Smith provided many talks on that subject as he was in exact same situation during his entire wrestling career at all levels. The story goes he came to Ohio State and Jim Jordan in practice pounded the you know what out of Smith. But Jim Jordan never came close to beating John Smith under game conditions. (might be an exception but only one and thus I can use this example) Jordan and other power and one dimensional great wrestlers require a tie up. John Smith says in his clinics he never would allow a tie up. Smith strategy was always moving and always on the offense with many setups some setups even purposely occurred after first shot attempt. In otherwords a shot attempt was the setup. Just one example of my point. Now there will be some jumping directly into the proverbial comment, well only John Smith is built to do John Smith stuff. I ain't talking about Reese developing John Smith stuff. John Smith is used ONLY as example of developing a strategy that works best for your given situation with the only comparison between Smith and Humprhey was the lack of physique to get into street fight on wrestling mat, ie the Wisconsin match.
The rest of the team there is something else going on, as this one fan sees the situation from the sidelines. As this one fan observes it is probably the "else" that is seemingly different in each weight class case discussed.
You give Metcalf way way too much credit. The spin has affected your vision. Lance was over powering him every time either with ties or snaps or defensive avoidance. Metcalf look small out there compared to Lance. Unfortunately, the staff are great highlighters of good information. So we do not know the situation with Lance at the Iowa match. Did anyone see Lance return to the bench with his fellow team after his match? I kept looking and could not find him. When they stopped his match the one time I thought he was going to do it all over the mat as Tom was talking to ref explaining his condition to support his injury time relief. I think if the flu was within the team no one would ever know as it is not a highlight type of information. There is no hesitation of this staff to market and/or spin ( I view the #1 tool in marketing these days is spin) . And the reverse is true. Lance will beat Metcalf 7 out of 10 times from what I saw at the dual. Lance did not shoot from fear or lack of talent that is for sure given his illustrate wrestling background. You should see Lance and Jaggers go at it in the room - phenomenal movement. There was something wrong with Lance just for that match. So I would take any discussion of messing with Lance this year or any year off the table. He is solid at 149 and will remain there regardless of team situations.
How far off was Jaggers from winning. He was pretty close. He has beaten top 5 this year and in past. He has finished strong in big matches. There is no conditioning problem with Jaggers. Any talk of too much respect for Iowa wrestler just has not talk to Jaggers and seen his eye of the tiger. And even though his ribs show through the singlet he has not gassed in past matches. I have not seen him unable to back up a move for lack of power. He was completely out of gas in the last period. I would guess the guy was also sick for the Iowa match. However, if one reviews his big matches lost with close scores, one might find some technique/strategy problems related to inserting his legs. I am sure the scouting book dictate the opponents to work constantly on looking to catch the foot when he tries to insert his legs. More diversity in his approach might see a change in outcome. A simple form of diversity, just to make the point, would be to go a takedown strategy for first period then a defense strategy the second period and then go to the five point leg turns directly of take downs in third period. Obviously, not that simple but it makes a point. If they are always looking for a run in football you are not going to be able to run in big game with well coached teams. Thus you have next 6 weeks to try out a different strategy. Does the staff have a relationship with Jay to simply install a different strategy? If it will take a few weeks to work on it then start Enright for couple of weeks until Jay feels conformable with the change. What a luxury to make such a statement.
Then Johnstone is yet another case to solve THIS YEAR. Not to be solved by lineup changes and wait until next year recruiting talk. (Unless of course the red shirted Nemec can beat Jason but if that was the case I would hope we would have already seen the change assuming the staff does not have the same vision as this thread of waiting to next year.) Jason also lost in a close way in Iowa but is consistently loosing to top ranked guys. He has leverage, strength to back up his moves, and surely the eye of the tiger persona. But if my memory serves me correctly there was not a shot - a committed shot - by anyone from 125 through including 157. Those who recorded the BTN onto DVD might want to get an accurate data point of COMMITTED shots plus number of takedown points from 125-157. (I used to have my own resources to do this fun type of analysis but they took it all away from me.) For the dual there might have been individual reasons as I discussed above for not shooting in the other weight classes. However, for Jason I think the data would say it is his style or his lack of takedown technique, his attitude or whatever. Can you win close ones on consistent basis in college wrestling against top 10 wrestlers with no successful offensive from your feet? Well, I just do not know. I guess Mitch Clark did. But Jason is not.
And last before I close, let me throw out another observation for getting it on THIS YEAR and is part of a focus on what can be improved this year. Review the Iowa tape. Review other 07-08 Big Ten duals this year. Determine how many weight classes had riding time against them at some point in the match or could not get out when it meant the difference in winning or loosing or who happen to escape via some uncontrolled once in life time scramble situation. Then take that piece of data and compare it to Iowa as a control point in your examination. Or compare it to the data from Rex Holman, Mark Coleman, Tommy Rowlands. Then take it further and watch what escape move was used consistently and at very high success rate by Iowa or these three OSU National Champions.
So I suggest before you start looking to next year when this year is just starting why not find ways to get it on this year. I suggest looking for ways to win via recruiting will not get corrected any structure problems in the program. let's get in on THIS YEAR! This team has everything it needs to get to the top THIS YEAR. The Iowa match might point out the staff's need to listen to their own words they give the wrestlers and use it in their own daily work - just find a way to get it done - and add THIS YEAR to the statement. I am sure this great staff is doing just that. What I fear is that they might conclude like the last staff that it is simply a mental situation of the wrestler that they need to avoid fear, be mentally tough, and simply find a way to win through just wanting it the most. I suggest a different approach. Review the value of developing strategy in wrestling in the same way as in football. Some play books are for teams with speed and other play books are for teams with power - a personal strategy. Then for each game there is a game plan that is determine and then translated to the practice schedule and routine. Could that get the Bucks over the top in close duals and matches?
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Discussion Topic: Should Lance Palmer redshirt next season?
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on January 21, 2008
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Quote from Cliff Cahill's post:
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"You give Metcalf way way too much credit. The spin has affected your vision. Lance was over powering him every time either with ties or snaps or defensive avoidance. Metcalf look small out there compared to Lance. Unfortunately, the staff are great highlighters of good information. So we do not know the situation with Lance at the Iowa match. Did anyone see Lance return to the bench with his fellow team after his match? I kept looking and could not find him. When they stopped his match the one time I thought he was going to do it all over the mat as Tom was talking to ref explaining his condition to support his injury time relief. I think if the flu was within the team no one would ever know as it is not a highlight type of information. There is no hesitation of this staff to market and/or spin ( I view the #1 tool in marketing these days is spin) . And the reverse is true. Lance will beat Metcalf 7 out of 10 times from what I saw at the dual. Lance did not shoot from fear or lack of talent that is for sure given his illustrate wrestling background. You should see Lance and Jaggers go at it in the room - phenomenal movement. There was something wrong with Lance just for that match. So I would take any discussion of messing with Lance this year or any year off the table. He is solid at 149 and will remain there regardless of team situations. "
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I don't know if Palmer should or shouldn't red-shirt next season. But, it's amazing how two people can watch the same event and see completely different things.
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Discussion Topic: Should Lance Palmer redshirt next season?
Brian Nicola added to this discussion on January 21, 2008
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Mr. Cahill-
I disagree on almost every point you make (respectfully, of course)
Hump has done well, beating highly ranked kids and lsoing to others. If he clicks on Nationals week, he can AA.
Jaggers seems up and down. I assume the weight is an issue for both he and Hump. A lot of times, big weight cutters look out of shape because they have nothing left to fuel them in the 3rd period. Regardless, he is less consistent that Hump, IMO. Both will get stronger iin Days 2 and 3 when the pounds get added at NCAAs. The key is getting to those days.
Palmer was not close to beating Metcalf Friday, although he certainly could be next time. I really hate the "sick" excuse. If was too ill to wrestle, he shoudln't have.
<banghead>
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Discussion Topic: Should Lance Palmer redshirt next season?
Scott Nicola added to this discussion on January 21, 2008
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Cliff,
Before I read my brothers reply I thought to myself "I really disagree with almost every point". Humphrey was in the best possible position for him (front headlock) and Slaton blew right threw him. This was b/c Reece lacks strength or the technique to properly his the move, in fact we have all seen him score with a fhl quite frequently. Hump was gassed in the 3rd from the cut and short recovery. Regarding John Smith (who is imo is the greatest American wrestler ever), you do realize that Jim Jordan beat him for an NCAA title right? I love the idea of Humphrey wrestling Smith's style and think he has the offensive tools (high crotch and low single) to do it,he just needs to change and become more aggressive.
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