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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on April 30, 2015
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Like many of you, I have been horrified by the recent rioting in cities like Baltimore. But I'm also aware that this type of anger and despair is not occurring in a vacuum. There are root causes. I am going to share a quote from Peter Angelos, owner of the Baltimore Orioles, given during a recent interview:
"Brett, speaking only for myself, I agree with your point that the principle of peaceful, non-violent protest and the observance of the rule of law is of utmost importance in any society. MLK, Gandhi, Mandela and all great opposition leaders throughout history have always preached this precept. Further, it is critical that in any democracy, investigation must be completed and due process must be honored before any government or police members are judged responsible.
That said, my greater source of personal concern, outrage and sympathy beyond this particular case is focused neither upon one night’s property damage nor upon the acts, but is focused rather upon the past four-decade period during which an American political elite have shipped middle class and working class jobs away from Baltimore and cities and towns around the U.S. to third-world dictatorships like China and others, plunged tens of millions of good, hard-working Americans into economic devastation, and then followed that action around the nation by diminishing every American’s civil rights protections in order to control an unfairly impoverished population living under an ever-declining standard of living and suffering at the butt end of an ever-more militarized and aggressive surveillance state.
The innocent working families of all backgrounds whose lives and dreams have been cut short by excessive violence, surveillance, and other abuses of the Bill of Rights by government pay the true price, and ultimate price, and one that far exceeds the importances of any kids’ game played tonight, or ever, at Camden Yards. We need to keep in mind people are suffering and dying around the U.S., and while we are thankful no one was injured at Camden Yards, there is a far bigger picture for poor Americans in Baltimore and everywhere who don’t have jobs and are losing economic civil and legal rights, and this makes inconvenience at a ballgame irrelevant in light of the needless suffering government is inflicting upon ordinary Americans."
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on April 30, 2015
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"...
That said, my greater source of personal concern, outrage and sympathy beyond this particular case is focused neither upon one night’s property damage nor upon the acts,
but is focused rather upon the past four-decade period during which an American political elite have shipped middle class and working class jobs away from Baltimore and cities and towns around the U.S. to third-world dictatorships like China and others
, plunged tens of millions of good, hard-working Americans into economic devastation, and then followed that action around the nation by diminishing every American’s civil rights protections in order to control an unfairly impoverished population living under an ever-declining standard of living and suffering at the butt end of an ever-more militarized and aggressive surveillance state.
..."
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If it came through in bold and underlined, great!
My question for that bold and underlined portion is how exactly did that "American political elite" ship a single job overseas? Is my assumption correct with the answer of taxes, regulations, etc.?
I have thought about this aspect for some time.
If McDonald's is selling the same burger as Burger King but doing so at $0.30 less the price, am I, along with countless other frugal customers, considered jerks because we choose McDonald's? I would hope not.
If not, and my earlier assumption of taxation/regulations is correct, why is a business - whatever industry makes Baltimore thrive - considered jerkish if they escape any layer or level of additional tax burden placed on them by a group of people in Washington DC?
In the end, (and I have wondered this while listening to arguments concerning gambling, sports gambling, marijuana legalization, and countless other possible revenue streams), how much will ever be enough for Washington DC?
Finally, my favorite moment of reflection revolves around how far we as a nation have strayed from what our founding fathers established, and what countless men and women lost their lives fight to preserve? The more I read of the early writings of our 18th century leaders, the less inclined I am to believe everything in the US is going to be okay.
I am off to read the origins and thought process behind the Gadsden Flag.
Thanks for starting this thread, Hank. I can't wait to read others' thoughts on topics such as.
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on April 30, 2015
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Mark: You have a valid point. How do you tell anyone running a huge company not to do whatever it takes to remain competitive--and profitable? Maybe that's why societies are doomed to failure...because it's natural to build empires but the steps we take to create them make them unsustainable. But there's also no denying the role that greed and subsequent political manipulation by the most wealthy and powerful has played in the demise of living conditions for the average American.
I don't blame the poor for being angry. I abhor the violence and mindless destruction but they have been victimized repeatedly and still are to this day.
Ever seen a dog that gets beaten all the time? It bites.
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Brian Nicola added to this discussion on April 30, 2015
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The violence upsets me, like any person with common sense, but it is not so simple to raise it up or condemn it. I think, in order to properly analyze it, you need to take out the looters that do so just to be nasty, bad human beings. After we remove them, we have the violent and non-violent protesters.
Let's discuss them.
I think one of the greatest misconceptions about MLK is that his "I Have a Dream" speech was the crowning glory of his communication. Instead, I believe that his "Letter from a Birmingham Jail" is more poignant and presents the answer to the rising frustration amongst the black (and poor, in general) population. King writes that protest (be it non-violent, his way, or violent, Malcolm X's way) are NECESSARY to affect social change because they make people uncomfortable. It isn't just about "raising awareness"...that's kind of a dumb term that is bandied about for everything...but, rather, causing the average person to feel discomfort with the state of things and take closer note. Not only take note, but discuss and help push things the way they should go, whatever way that is. King also says that his letter is directed not to people already firmly entrenched on the issues (in his case, the KKK or the Civil Rights activists), but rather, the moderate...those who know something is wrong, but choose to do nothing about it for fear of upsetting their own applecart. The discomfort these protests create forces our hand.
I don't know what the answer is. Hell, I'm not even sure of the question. But, I do know something is amiss, and it's each one of our jobs to help put things right.
It can't be "...of the people, by the people, for the people" if we just sit here. At the very least, we must educate ourselves on the issues and form an opinion.
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on April 30, 2015
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Quote from Brian Nicola's post:
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" I don't know what the answer is. Hell, I'm not even sure of the question. But, I do know something is amiss, and it's each one of our jobs to help put things right.
It can't be "...of the people, by the people, for the people" if we just sit here. At the very least, we must educate ourselves on the issues and form an opinion."
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Brian, i'm pretty well educated thank you-- the Editorial Board at the Cleveland Plain Dealer and the Editor know me, for many years ive sent them plenty of opinions and they have responded.
PROTEST is as American as apple pie, however if- god forbid- Mr Brisket was looted & burned i'm guessing Hank would not be very understanding, perhaps even enraged. Somewhere in Baltimore a "Mr Brisket, built by sweat, blood & tears of a "little guy" was burned --that outrages me.
My latest missive to Plain Dealer and to channel 19 WOIO:
Original Message-----
From: Ohiobobp@aol.com
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 18:23:23 -0400
Subject: Fwd: i listened
To: esullivan@cleveland.com, KOBRIEN@plaind.com, tdiadiun@plaind.com,
pmorris@plaind.com
it takes an old black former army Sgt standing in the middle of a Baltimore street to tell it like it is. BobP
-----Original Message-----
From: Ohiobobp@aol.com
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 17:41:10 -0400
Subject: i listened
To: hboomer@woio.com, dmancuso@woio.com, dwittman@woio.com, rrobinson@woio.com
CC: ddufala@woio.com, porlousky@woio.com
i listened to your "op-ed" about 5:15 today ---Boomer, Robinson, Wittman-- btw i actually live in this town not the burbs-----
what i didnt hear u say much if anything about is individual responsibility to do the right thing, anything about stoping outright criminal activity, anything about protecting average citizens. They burned down a Senior Citizens Home !
The black army Sgt Valentine got it right, listen to him, he's not making excuses like u guys are, where is the parenting?? what has looting a CVS, stealing TVs, throwing rocks got to do with improving ones lot in life or fighting injustice?? i have NO tolerance myself for bad cops however those were criminals doing what criminals do-- and u mentioned jobs well i guarantee you theres fewer today in Baltimore than there were and more will be leaving. s/BobPreusse, Cleveland
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Mike Stann added to this discussion on April 30, 2015
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Quote from Mark Niemann's post:
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"
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"...
That said, my greater source of personal concern, outrage and sympathy beyond this particular case is focused neither upon one night’s property damage nor upon the acts,
but is focused rather upon the past four-decade period during which an American political elite have shipped middle class and working class jobs away from Baltimore and cities and towns around the U.S. to third-world dictatorships like China and others
, plunged tens of millions of good, hard-working Americans into economic devastation, and then followed that action around the nation by diminishing every American’s civil rights protections in order to control an unfairly impoverished population living under an ever-declining standard of living and suffering at the butt end of an ever-more militarized and aggressive surveillance state.
..."
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If it came through in bold and underlined, great!
My question for that bold and underlined portion is how exactly did that "American political elite" ship a single job overseas? Is my assumption correct with the answer of taxes, regulations, etc.?
I have thought about this aspect for some time.
If McDonald's is selling the same burger as Burger King but doing so at $0.30 less the price, am I, along with countless other frugal customers, considered jerks because we choose McDonald's? I would hope not.
If not, and my earlier assumption of taxation/regulations is correct, why is a business - whatever industry makes Baltimore thrive - considered jerkish if they escape any layer or level of additional tax burden placed on them by a group of people in Washington DC?
In the end, (and I have wondered this while listening to arguments concerning gambling, sports gambling, marijuana legalization, and countless other possible revenue streams), how much will ever be enough for Washington DC?
Finally, my favorite moment of reflection revolves around how far we as a nation have strayed from what our founding fathers established, and what countless men and women lost their lives fight to preserve? The more I read of the early writings of our 18th century leaders, the less inclined I am to believe everything in the US is going to be okay.
I am off to read the origins and thought process behind the Gadsden Flag.
Thanks for starting this thread, Hank. I can't wait to read others' thoughts on topics such as."
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Mark, your analogy is good as far as it goes. However, what if BK was your first job, they worked with you and your schedule so you could go to school and become a wrestling coach, and generally were good employers. How does that affect your equation? Do you turn your back on BK to save .30. And what would that say about you. How about Mickey D getting that .30 cent cut in burger price by using child labor or buying inferior ingredients? Does that change anything.
My point is that one runs into problems when the only criteria is $. I think the point is that what is good for the community, country or world as a whole is a better criteria for evaluating responses and solutions. Taxes should be for the betterment of the whole. Companies should benefit from an educated workforce, a safe community, clean air and water. The real problem it seems to me is that large corporations and those that run them have bought off the political system and rigged it in favor of them. Since they threaten to move at the drop of a hat cities and state throw money their way (tax abatements) As soon as the company has a source of cheaper labor they pick up and move to china etc where they can exploit the poverty of those countries poor. So instead of being part of a vibrant community they become parasites living off the community.
Be careful of making our founding fathers sacrosanct. In addition to many great principles, they also founded a country based upon an economy that used slaves, had no universal vote (women, poor, minority need not apply) and used children for labor. So one should look at each act or principle on its own. The one that I think applies here is that we are a republic based on the masses chosing the elite to rule for the good of the entire country. We now have career politicians, looking out only for themselves (no matter what they say) employed in a very lucrative job which they never wish to relinquish. And that is both sides of the aisle. And what is the best way to do that but cater to the rich and powerful. What we see in Baltimore is simply the world reacting as it always has when there is great inequality amongst its' citizens.
Hank and Mark you are two of my favorites folks on this forum and I think it is great that you are willing to engage on this topic.
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on April 30, 2015
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Brian: Thank you for making me feel not alone concerning "Letters...". I just re-read it. That is one excellent piece of writing.
Mike: Excellent point about it being tough to make an analogy hold together if you try to make it walk on all four legs. Also, point taken concerning the founding fathers.
"Taxes should be for the betterment of the whole. Companies should benefit from an educated workforce, a safe community, clean air and water. The real problem it seems to me is that large corporations and those that run them have bought off the political system and rigged it in favor of them." (- Mike Stann)
To me, this ought not to be this way. It is not freedom. It more resembles Hank's point dealing with greed.
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on April 30, 2015
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on April 30, 2015
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Hank, race doesnt matter to me, u r trying to bait me but i'm not going there.
as an enlisted man, bottom of the barrel, a peon, i learned to get along with all types of people in the army in the mid 60s: the ghetto guys, the hispanic guys, the farm boys, the hillbillies, city tough guys, all of them. i slept and fought beside them and we depended on each other.
They were and are my brothers.
certainly i myself am a flawed man, as ive said that on here before.
However i believe in personal responsibility, our society is built on personal responsibility. Unless a person is truly mentally ill or mentally retarded each person must realize there are consequences for our actions. Thats what i believe. ...s/BobP
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on April 30, 2015
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I really enjoy posting on this site. I enjoy the conversation, debate and discussion. So much so, that I don't see how I can weigh in on this topic. I just don't understand the other side of the argument...and when people voice it and defend it, I find myself struggling to contain my disdain.
So carry on gentlemen. It's an interesting read.
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on April 30, 2015
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Let's rip, M-Rod! I think when people seek to understand the other side of a stance, the opposing side is more willing to educate. Less fighting/arguing/banter that way.
@BobP: your perspective is much like mine. To reference the aforementioned MLK Jr.: character is what matters.
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on May 1, 2015
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Bob and Mark:
If it were as simple as taking personal responsibility, we could make a huge dent in this issue.
Growing up in single parent/no parent homes with little or zero role models...the instability of moving from home to home...being stuck around overwhelmingly negative influences...having no health care so that every medical issue becomes a trip to the hospital...seeing your lives ignored by most of society except when something bad happens...being hungry, being abused...You can't just say "be responsible." While there are always people who will provide examples of rising above circumstances, most of us are products of our environments. This has always been the way it is.
I know both of you have good hearts and want people to have better lives. But you're misguided if you really think people regardless of circumstances should just suddenly behave better.
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Brian Nicola added to this discussion on May 1, 2015
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"Bob and Mark:
If it were as simple as taking personal responsibility, we could make a huge dent in this issue.
Growing up in single parent/no parent homes with little or zero role models...the instability of moving from home to home...being stuck around overwhelmingly negative influences...having no health care so that every medical issue becomes a trip to the hospital...seeing your lives ignored by most of society except when something bad happens...being hungry, being abused...You can't just say "be responsible." While there are always people who will provide examples of rising above circumstances, most of us are products of our environments. This has always been the way it is.
I know both of you have good hearts and want people to have better lives. But you're misguided if you really think people regardless of circumstances should just suddenly behave better."
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This.
As a side note, I'm not supporting the violent protests, there should be arrests and charges. It is ridiculous. I'm only saying it isn't just that people want to break and steal stuff....it is born from a frustration that most of us can't understand b/c we don't live it.
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Mike Stann added to this discussion on May 1, 2015
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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"Hank, race doesnt matter to me, u r trying to bait me but i'm not going there.
as an enlisted man, bottom of the barrel, a peon, i learned to get along with all types of people in the army in the mid 60s: the ghetto guys, the hispanic guys, the farm boys, the hillbillies, city tough guys, all of them. i slept and fought beside them and we depended on each other.
They were and are my brothers.
certainly i myself am a flawed man, as ive said that on here before.
However i believe in personal responsibility, our society is built on personal responsibility. Unless a person is truly mentally ill or mentally retarded each person must realize there are consequences for our actions. Thats what i believe. ...s/BobP"
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Bob, i too was an enlisted man in the army. I too share your feelings toward my fellow man and am also a flawed person (as are we all). I too believe in personal responsibility. The problem comes from "there are consequences for our actions". Unfortunately that is often not the case or the consequences do not match the action. Personal responsibility cuts both ways. The looters should be held accountable as should the police and the public officials who have caused or allowed this situation to have come to this. And unfortunately when consequences fall far more heavily on the poor and those that feel either perceived or real suppression, than on the rich and powerful, it is human nature to take matters into your own hands. The Boston tea party had folks destroy over $1,000,000 (in today's money) in tea belonging to boston merchants and warehouseman because of perceived injustice and heavy burden imposed by the tax involved. And it is also human nature to follow the mob mentality. Bob you've been in the service so I know you've seen that.
I agree with Brian you must separate the looters etc. from the protesters (they are two different groups). Those that joined hands and confronted the police imo are the epitome of personal responsibility. They were taking responsibility for not only themselves but their community. They knew they might be arrested or even beaten but did it anyway (not only realizing there are might be consequences but also accepting them). Can they be held responsible for the fact that there will always be those that use a threat to societal order to further their own ends be it looting stores to instituting massive government surveillance of its' own citizens (as our govt. did following 9-11). That of course is a question we all must answer for ourselves.
I don't believe there are any pat answers. I do believe we get closer to the truth when we engage in this kind of discourse and take the time to listen to each other and consider the other's opinions. "nothing insures ignorance like contempt before investigation"
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on May 1, 2015
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"Bob and Mark:
If it were as simple as taking personal responsibility, we could make a huge dent in this issue.
I know both of you have good hearts and want people to have better lives. But you're misguided if you really think people regardless of circumstances should just suddenly behave better."
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ah Hank oh Hank .... of course its NOT SIMPLE, taking personal responsibility is hard, hard for each of us, some more than others. But we must still expect it and strive for it. Not just make excuses.
i judge each person on their own merits, just as they should judge me. ***MLK said "We seek a day when a man is judged not on his skin color but on the content of his character." By those very words MLK was championing personal responsibility.
we all have to do our best with the hand we are dealt. Yes for some life is harsher than others, this goes for all races, creeds, colors and national origins. But excuses don't cut it and America has become a country of excuse-makers.
to work towards a just, fair and productive society we must insist each of us with sound mind take personal responsibity. Thats my two cent. ...s/BobP
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