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Discussion Topic: is this still true ?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on June 24, 2020
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"We know that we cannot live together without rules which tell us what is right and what is wrong, what is permitted and what is prohibited. We know that it is law which enables men to live together, that creates order out of chaos. We know that law is the glue that holds civilization together."
Robert Kennedy
assassinated 52 years ago this month. Would have become president and changed America, imo
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Discussion Topic: is this still true ?
Justin Hayes added to this discussion on June 25, 2020
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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""We know that we cannot live together without rules which tell us what is right and what is wrong, what is permitted and what is prohibited. We know that it is law which enables men to live together, that creates order out of chaos. We know that law is the glue that holds civilization together."
Robert Kennedy
assassinated 52 years ago this month. Would have become president and changed America, imo"
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First, we have to answer the question, "Why do humans need rules?"
What is the truthful, honest reality of our inherent nature, the essence of our humanity?
Selflessness? A genuine abiding desire to love our neighbors? Altruism? LOL!
6,000 years of human history screams otherwise...as does each of our personal lives if we genuinely evaluate ourselves using objective metrics.
Then we have to pose the second question..."Who determines 'right and wrong' and 'permitted and prohibited'?"
How is all that "subjective" truth working out for everyone in a world structured within a reaping/sowing context? Everybody at peace, free of fear? Good stewardship of resources and direction? Great relationships all around?
Inherently selfish natures + demand to be a law unto myself = insurmountable, confused, enigmatic, generational human misery.
It's almost as if I need a perfect, powerful, wise, eternal ruler outside of myself to a) supernaturally change my sinful, selfish nature and b) teach me absolute truth outside of myself...
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Discussion Topic: is this still true ?
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on July 3, 2020
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No almost for me. I needed them both.
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Discussion Topic: is this still true ?
Steve Lester added to this discussion on July 5, 2020
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Homo Sapiens evolved in social groupings. Most higher order species have social rules. I remember seeing a Natural Geographic about Sea Lions (I think). The group had an alpha leader, as do many of the more advanced species in the animal kingdom. During mating season the females, who were very much smaller than the males, chose the males that they would mate with. One of the tasks of the alpha was to prevent the rape of unwilling females.
Other rules, such as no murder, would seem to transcend species. This is an oversimplified answer to the question. Homo Sapiens is certainly more advanced intellectually. Man can ask the question "why". And then can think of answers in abstraction.
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Discussion Topic: is this still true ?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on July 6, 2020
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an aside: Lakewood Steve is back-- ive missed your insightful posts, where have u been the past couple years?
answer to original query: Bobby Kennedy was right, law and order is the bedrock of a civilized society. The fact that much of the country is wandering away from it, wandering around in a fog of moral dilemma, with cranks as leaders, not willing to face reality, not willing to work together for a common good speaks to a continuing decline in this nation.
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Discussion Topic: is this still true ?
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on July 6, 2020
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Mr Preusse...It’s comforting to me in these strange days that somethings never change. As usual, we disagree.
Ahhh, the good old days when people followed the rules and the laws. When life was more simple and America was righteous. When was this magical time? And were the laws back then super just for everyone? We had a poster on here years ago, Gary (I think) . He and I would go round and round about America’s better days. He never could nail down exactly when that was.
Also, as far as I can tell, the Kennedy’s were a political family, no different from the Clintons or the Bush’s or any other. There hasn’t been a transformational president in my lifetime. The odds that Robert Kennedy would have been “the one” are slim. He may well have done a good job, by I highly doubt he would have changed anything fundamentally.
Finally, I can’t think of a single law that matters to me. I don’t not murder because it’s illegal. I don’t not steal because it’s illegal. I don’t not rape because it’s illegal. If heroin was legal I wouldn’t try it. When pot was illegal I would indulge from time to time. The speed limit is 65 and sometimes I break it because I’m in a hurry or in the mood to drive fast, law be damned. It’s not the law that keeps people from from being bad citizens. It’s people.
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Discussion Topic: is this still true ?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on July 6, 2020
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welcome back MikeR, its a great day when 2 wayward posters return. And u r right, things havent changed, LOL. You still love to disagree with me. And i welcome it. Things were geting boring on here.
but u still have one bad habit Mike, that of putting words in my mouth. i've said nothing of "a magical time", "good old days", "America being righteous".
theres a reason our founders created a judicial system,
with the 3rd branch being the Supreme Court which can overrule Presidents and change society. We are a nation of Laws. Doesnt always work as well as it could but its better than China, Russia, Iran, Somalia & many others.
in closing i can only say https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8_FOQ7-P30
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Discussion Topic: is this still true ?
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on July 6, 2020
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I cannot put into words how great it is to have Steve Lester and Mike Rodriguez contributing to this forum.
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Discussion Topic: is this still true ?
Bill Splete added to this discussion on July 6, 2020
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Truly a good day. Dissent is our foundation. Bob this is a tough one and would defer to Rex's existential perspective.
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Last edited by Bill Splete on July 9, 2020; edited 2 times in total
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Discussion Topic: is this still true ?
John Joyce added to this discussion on July 7, 2020
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While I hate people, I tend to still believe that “people” as a whole are inherently good. Outside of law (be it whatever form you subscribe to, natural, societal, organizational), I believe that right and wrong are inherent. A person is bad, people are good.
The bigger issue at hand is when your societal laws are unjust and/or are enforced unjustly (the reality in this country since its inception), “people” have to stand up, fight the injustice, and change the system. That’s where we are now and it’s well past time.
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Discussion Topic: is this still true ?
John Joyce added to this discussion on July 7, 2020
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While I hate people, I tend to still believe that “people” as a whole are inherently good. Outside of law (be it whatever form you subscribe to, natural, societal, organizational), I believe that right and wrong are inherent. A person is bad, people are good.
The bigger issue at hand is when your societal laws are unjust and/or are enforced unjustly (the reality in this country since its inception), “people” have to stand up, fight the injustice, and change the system. That’s where we are now and it’s well past time.
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Discussion Topic: is this still true ?
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on July 7, 2020
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I’m sure for every (subjectively) positive element of America, one could give something (subjectively) negative. Using subjective terms basically results in a “spitting match”. Nothing really gets accomplished.
Until objective measures are determined and agreed upon, it’s all a “this is what I like and that is what you like” discussion. In order to determine if a country is good/positive/beneficial versus bad/negative/detrimental, I would suggest trying to obtain objective measures.
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Discussion Topic: is this still true ?
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on July 7, 2020
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America isn’t unique because we don’t have the sins of other nations, but it is unique in the freedoms and opportunities it presents. There is a reason millions upon millions have immigrated legally and illegally here.
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Discussion Topic: is this still true ?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on July 7, 2020
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well said Brady, here we have the freedom and opportunity to change Laws. And to change how they are applied. It's a slow process but it is in place.
One may well ask: "How can you advocate breaking some laws and obeying others?" The answer lies in the fact that there are two types of laws: just and unjust. I would be the first to advocate obeying just laws. One has not only a legal, but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that "an unjust law is no law at all."
MARTIN LUTHER KING, JR
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Discussion Topic: is this still true ?
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on July 7, 2020
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I agree Bob and wish I’d had made that point in my post. I have no desire to sweep our collective past sins under a rug. Great evils occurred that thankfully people fought against and as a result changed. On the other hand, I also have no desire to sweep the great things, great ideas, and great foundations laid because of the sins of those establishing them either.
Imagine if that happened with each of us? Would anything we’ve ever done be allowed to stand?
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