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Discussion Topic: Thoughts on improving the college wrestling product
Jason L. Jackson added to this discussion on March 18, 2021
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Mat wrestling without turns is the worst. It's boring to the average person, and keeps our sport from being a better TV product. So I have three ideas, and I wanted thoughts from the wrestling mensa on this board.
1. No riding time point unless points are scored from the top position. The point of riding is to turn your opponent and score, not just hang on.
2. There needs to be a count for standing and holding from behind, just like there is on the leg. It's inconsistent as to when that's called stalling and when it isn't. If it were a 5 count, and the ref called it out loud, we'd see releases and more time on their feet.
3. This one is tricky, but, when a wrestler starts in the top position, and the wrestlers get to a position where, had they started in neutral no takedown would be awarded, stop the riding time clock. I hate seeing a guy hang onto a front headlock and get riding time. He is, by definition, not in control, when a takedown, requiring control, would not be awarded.
4. Building on that, any time there is a stoppage for out of bounds, stalemate or stalling, and the wrestlers are in a position where a takedown would not be awarded if they had started in neutral, an escape is awarded and the wrestlers go back to their feet.
Not saying these are perfect, but they are thoughts going through my head as I watch today.
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Discussion Topic: Thoughts on improving the college wrestling product
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on March 18, 2021
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I've been a fan of #1 for nearly a decade.
Also, I would simplify points 3 & 4 and just state when there's OOB, top man can choose neutral and no escape point is awarded. Together, it incentivizes the top man to work for a turn and the bottom man to stay in bounds and work for the E-1.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I like this.
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Discussion Topic: Thoughts on improving the college wrestling product
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 18, 2021
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For 3 & 4 — change the definition of an escape to include those positions — but that can lead to giving up takedowns when not really in a “neutral” position.
But woof — so many guys ride just to ride. I’d just eliminate riding time all together.
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Discussion Topic: Thoughts on improving the college wrestling product
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on March 18, 2021
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I agree with Brady, eliminate riding time. It serves no useful purpose and yet a point is scored.
This is not the same sport as it was 40+ years ago. College wrestling is the only place where riding time exists.
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Discussion Topic: Thoughts on improving the college wrestling product
Luke Moore added to this discussion on March 18, 2021
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Or...just wrestle freestyle. That is basically what Snyder did for 4 years. Why re our top guys still having to wrestle 2 different styles of wrestling? Its time!!!
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Discussion Topic: Thoughts on improving the college wrestling product
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on March 18, 2021
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I have never understood the riding time point. If you can successfully ride someone, then the point is baked in when your opponent doesn't receive a point for escaping. Why the extra point just for maintaining a position? Imagine applying a similar stance on any other position. Would we ever dream of giving the bottom man a point for not getting turned or a neutral wrestler a point for remaining neutral?
Take the point away, period. Turners will still be tough on top because top wrestling has been incentivized so much by the four-point near fall. "Riders" should should be hit for stalling the moment it's clear they are not actively working towards a turn. Problem solved.
...or what Luke said.
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Discussion Topic: Thoughts on improving the college wrestling product
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on March 18, 2021
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Glad we're all in agreement. I'll chip in that I hate watching some wrestler getting mauled, stuck on bottom, giving up riding time...and then the ref hits him for stalling. Everyone knows the difference between stalling on bottom and fighting for your life not to give up backs.
How about one point for any back exposure as long as there's a one count? Run a bar and the guy rolls through? You get a point. You tilt but the guy is able to stop exposure after a sec...you get a point. Granted, it's pushing in the direction of freestyle. But it makes for a better folkstyle product.
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Discussion Topic: Thoughts on improving the college wrestling product
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on March 18, 2021
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Quote from Luke Moore's post:
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"Or...just wrestle freestyle. That is basically what Snyder did for 4 years. Why re our top guys still having to wrestle 2 different styles of wrestling? Its time!!!"
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Daaaaang, bro.
You think you know someone. :-(
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Discussion Topic: Thoughts on improving the college wrestling product
Mike Stann added to this discussion on March 19, 2021
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imo the thing that makes international wrestling so exciting is 1) it is never tied someone is always ahead. 2) there's no hiding at the edge due to the push out rule. you're up by one with time left you have to engage. today I saw folk get that lead late and get to the edge and hang out. Kaleb's match was a prime example but not the only one by a long shot.
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Discussion Topic: Thoughts on improving the college wrestling product
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on March 19, 2021
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Quote from Mike Stann's post:
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"imo the thing that makes international wrestling so exciting is 1) it is never tied someone is always ahead. 2) there's no hiding at the edge due to the push out rule. you're up by one with time left you have to engage. today I saw folk get that lead late and get to the edge and hang out. Kaleb's match was a prime example but not the only one by a long shot."
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+1
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Discussion Topic: Thoughts on improving the college wrestling product
Jared Ball added to this discussion on March 19, 2021
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I agree it's boring, and a bad product. But....folk style is about controlling your opponent, isn't it? I believe I heard Tommy Rowlands say something during a Podcast a couple of years ago..."It's not the job of the top man to let the bottom guy up". There is something demoralizing and dominating about riding the ever living life out of someone.
I see no difference in this argument and the equivalent in freestyle of a takedown less match determined by shot clock points. I'd wager that it happens in freestyle just as frequently.
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Discussion Topic: Thoughts on improving the college wrestling product
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on March 19, 2021
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My question has always been, when do you go from riding (and working over the opponent) to stalling (and being completely boring)?
I understand that riding can be (very) hard but when someone racks up 4 or 5 minutes of RT and there isn't a stalling call made, how is that appealing?
Worse yet, a stall call on a defensive man under someone like Logan, Lee, or Marinelli.
Hint::No one under them is stalling because they don't want to be there. If they could get out, they would.
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Discussion Topic: Thoughts on improving the college wrestling product
Roe Fox added to this discussion on March 20, 2021
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[quote="Jim Behrens"]My question has always been, when do you go from riding (and working over the opponent) to stalling (and being completely boring)?
Watch most PSU wrestlers trapping the leg. You know who watched Starocci? D. Romero, who did it for a while to Kaleb.
It sure seems to me that the PSU wrestlers seem to get a lot of breaks, including not getting tag for the dancing.
I remember it negatively affecting Bo Jordan in a couple of key matches when the refs would stop his leg ride, even though he clearly was trying to turn someone with it. These guys just hang out there.
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