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Discussion Topic: Slam or no Slam
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 15, 2022
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Jim,
Much has been discussed about the Cooper Shore slam call. This is not to debate if it was or wasn't -- though I think that was the correct call -- and will be called a slam WAY more than not. I did see video of one worse (kids are was trapped) that was missed.
My question is this -- if you have watched the video of that slam, the kid is being mat returned with no arm trapped. On the way down, his arm is out to "catch" himself as he returns to the mat (like we've all done) but right before hitting the mat, he brings his arm in and lands directly on his shoulder. I understand it is the top person's responsibility to return his opponent safely to the mat -- but what would happen if everybody uses the "2x4" defense anytime they are being brought to the mat.
Think of a double leg.
As a wrestler, we expect them to catch themselves and "necessary force" is required to take down an opponent. If they brought their arms to their side, I think a ton of "normal" doubles and normal mat returns would turn into a slam.
Does my question make sense?
Thoughts?
Other's .Net(ers) thoughts?
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Discussion Topic: Slam or no Slam
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on March 16, 2022
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Well, I can try to explain what I think and what I know. Hopefully it will make sense.
A slam is defined by Rule 7-1-1. I think it is purposely a little vague so as to allow for different types of situations. As was told to me long ago, any rule book that tries to cover every single possibility would too large and unwieldy to be of use.
Let me start with the idea that anything might be possible. When a wrestler is taken off the mat, a lot of their actions and reactions are things that they are not thinking about or trying to do. They are trying to regain balance as they are taken off the mat.
The comparisons I would make are an auto accident or a crash on my bicycle (for those who don't know, I have been racing for almost 50 years). When a crash happens, you instinctively try to protect yourself in some manner BUT you aren't really thinking about what you do, it is more of a reaction. The is the reason that many cyclists (myself included) break a collarbone. You just reach out to break the fall and the arm jams back on the collarbone.
We are all used to seeing a wrestler hit a double and lift his opponent off the mat. It looks normal because we see it all the time. It is when something does not look normal that it catches our attention. I suppose it is possible that what you describe could happen but a double is so common that I doubt that anyone would see it differently. In addition, I would highly doubt that any wrestler is going to pull his arms in in an attempt to draw a call. Back to what I wrote above, most of what is done is just a reaction PLUS they might actually get really hurt.
Is it possible? I would say it is but, IMO, highly unlikely.
Again, these are just random thoughts based on what I think you are asking. There is probably a lot more that could be said but this might be too much as it is.
As side light, I came across this list a few days ago and thought it is worth sharing. I wish I could take credit for it but I am not this smart.
Things that do NOT matter when calling a slam:
1) Whose knee hit first
2) Defense failed to protect self
3) Arm or body position
4) Anything (legal) done by defense
5) What body part hit first by offense or defense
6) Whether or not it’s the state finals
7) Who is wrestling
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Last edited by Jim Behrens on March 16, 2022; edited 1 time in total
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Discussion Topic: Slam or no Slam
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on March 16, 2022
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Things that do NOT matter when calling a slam:
1) Whose knee hit first
2) Defense failed to protect self
3) Arm or body position
4) Anything (legal) done by defense
5) What body part hit first by offense or defense
7) Whether or not it’s the state finals
8) Who is wrestling
Every coach/wrestler should read this list several times a season. Well done, Jim Behrens
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Discussion Topic: Slam or no Slam
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 16, 2022
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Did either of you see that slam call? Check to see if you see the guy bringing in his arm before hitting the mat.
Curious if you've ever seen this before. I hadn't so that's what got me thinking. If you haven't, I'll try and find the link from the man himself, Zeb Miller.
Another question, for Jim as our resident ref. On that list, it had anything (legal) the defensive wrestler does. The action that I've seen them take that directly leads to a slam call is when they attempt a Granby when coming back to the mat. For the offensive man, this is EXTREMELY difficult to change in mid mat return then the opponent throws themself head first to the mat.
Thoughts on this situation?
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Discussion Topic: Slam or no Slam
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on March 16, 2022
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Brady,
I have seen the video. Actually today the OHSAA Director of Development asked me if I could find it so I emailed Zeb and got the link from him.
Just now I captured a couple of screenshots trying to catch the time you refer to. In both pictures the arms are still extended. If he pulled them in, I suspect it was a reaction to hitting mat on his shoulder. It happens so very fast that I can't imagine that it was intentional in any way. If I knew how to attached the pictures I would but there doesn't seem to be a way to do it. In the mean time, here is a link to the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1C-x3g8n-U
Regarding your second question, the way we are told is that if a wrestler takes the opponent off the mat, he is responsible for the safe return. No doubt that it is difficult/impossible to change direction at a time like that and I don't really have an answer for anyone to hang their hat on. Every situation is unique and has to be judged as such.
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Discussion Topic: Slam or no Slam
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 16, 2022
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I saw the video from the other side. I'll try and find it again.
Another question, when the wrestlers level are higher (state finals, ironmaman, etc) do officials take that into consideration -- meaning what is considered "unnecessary force" because these cats today can scramble so flippin well, more force is necessary to execute some technique than if two 1st year guys are competing.
Another Another question, it was referenced in another thread how different matches are officiated in PA. Why the vast difference? Seems like that shouldn't be a thing.
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Discussion Topic: Slam or no Slam
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on March 16, 2022
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Quote from Brady Hiatt's post:
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"I saw the video from the other side. I'll try and find it again.
Another question, when the wrestlers level are higher (state finals, ironmaman, etc) do officials take that into consideration -- meaning what is considered "unnecessary force" because these cats today can scramble so flippin well, more force is necessary to execute some technique than if two 1st year guys are competing.
Another Another question, it was referenced in another thread how different matches are officiated in PA. Why the vast difference? Seems like that shouldn't be a thing."
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I saw the other side on FLO as it happened. There might be others as well.
As a rule of thumb, yes they generally take the level of an event like this into account. I can not say always, of course, but it is a consideration.
I can't address that statement as I never officiated in Pa nor have I attended any of their meetings to find out how they are different. In a perfect world you are correct, it should not be a thing. I guess that as long as all the stakeholders (wrestlers, coaches, officials) play by the same rules, it should not be a problem.
FYI, Zeb teaches about 1 mile from where I live. I see him fairly often.
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Discussion Topic: Slam or no Slam
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 16, 2022
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Quote from Jim Behrens's post:
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"I can't address that statement as I never officiated in Pa nor have I attended any of their meetings to find out how they are different. In a perfect world you are correct, it should not be a thing. I guess that as long as all the stakeholders (wrestlers, coaches, officials) play by the same rules, it should not be a problem.
FYI, Zeb teaches about 1 mile from where I live. I see him fairly often."
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I took my team to PA years back. PA kid was ridding wrists and sitting on my kids hips for 30-45 seconds straight. I start talking. Action goes out of bounds. Ref says, "welcome to PA Buckeye. We don't bail out bottom man here." I chuckled.
Went back to my team and we adjusted.
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Discussion Topic: Slam or no Slam
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on March 16, 2022
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If they are active working to score or to turn, I have zero issue with it. Otherwise it is a ride. I hear stories like that all the time but never was in a position to see it.
Funny story. The only time my brother got tossed from a tournament was many years ago in Pa. At that time headlock , peterson, or hip toss to the back scored ONLY if back points were earned (in Ohio). Pa allowed the TD to score without NF. My brother goes off the deep end and proceeds to get to sit in the bus for the rest of the day.
Lesson learned!
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Discussion Topic: Slam or no Slam
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 16, 2022
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Quote from Jim Behrens's post:
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"Funny story. The only time my brother got tossed from a tournament was many years ago in Pa. At that time headlock , peterson, or hip toss to the back scored ONLY if back points were earned (in Ohio). Pa allowed the TD to score without NF. My brother goes off the deep end and proceeds to get to sit in the bus for the rest of the day.
Lesson learned!"
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HILARIOUS!!!
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Discussion Topic: Slam or no Slam
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 16, 2022
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Discussion Topic: Slam or no Slam
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on March 16, 2022
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I looked at it and what you talked about is clear from this side.
IMHO, it doesn't change anything. I would guess that he pulled it back in as a reaction more than anything. Who knows, if he kept the arm out, he might have broken it
I would bet that he has no knowledge of having done that or why he did it.
Anything I can say is only a guess.
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Discussion Topic: Slam or no Slam
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 16, 2022
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Quote from Jim Behrens's post:
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"I looked at it and what you talked about is clear from this side.
IMHO, it doesn't change anything. I would guess that he pulled it back in as a reaction more than anything. Who knows, if he kept the arm out, he might have broken it
I would bet that he has no knowledge of having done that or why he did it.
Anything I can say is only a guess."
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I'm am not implying anything and apologize if it came of as that. Just saw this as it happed and thought, uff, that's tough. From a wrestlers perspective, you expect certain reactions and actions and when you don't get them, it throws you off and can end it an action that you never even considered when initiating the action..
And yes, I agree that this will be called a slam the overwhelmingly majority of the time. Like in the high 90% of the time.
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Discussion Topic: Slam or no Slam
Rex Holman added to this discussion on March 16, 2022
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Slam.
Top man has a rear body lock position and drives shoulder into bottom man's back, perpendicular to the mat.
Bottom man retracted arm out of instinct as he possibly injures ribs or shoulder if he does'nt. It seems like he "gamed" the situation, but it was done as intuitive measure to prevent injury. Spread the load over a greater surface. However, the head ends up being involved when that happens.
As for bottom man granbying out on a lift. Same thing will happen if there is no separation and he will land on his head. i.e. Vito Maurici IU v Steve King UM consolation quarterfinals '94 NCAA tournament. King knocked himself out but won by DQ while Vito was in control and going to win. I don't remember if Vito let go of the lock.
Never stand up without hand control otherwise you are at a disadvantage.
That being said, if you try a granby without a break in grip or separation, good chance you are going to get hurt.
In order to lessen the impact, the top man needs to release his lock on the return and transition to a claw/ waist or inside thigh.
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