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Discussion Topic: Antifragile
Jeff Streu added to this discussion on June 2, 2022
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Somewhat off topic, but recently the CEO of the company I work for did an interview and at one point towards the end of it he threw out the term antifragile; it made me think of some of the instances when Rex has brought up this topic on this board. Cool concept.
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Discussion Topic: Antifragile
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on June 3, 2022
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not familiar with it.. im willing to learn.. use it in 2 or 3 sentences
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Discussion Topic: Antifragile
Mike Stann added to this discussion on June 4, 2022
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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"not familiar with it.. im willing to learn.. use it in 2 or 3 sentences"
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Bob as I understand the concept it is looking at stress and setbacks as necessary to growth. So Sadulaev would be antifragile since he lost to Kyle, learned from it, welcomed the stress of continuing to compete with Kyle and ended up besting him. It is my understanding that antifragile folk actually welcome stress and chaos as opposed to most folk who welcome certainty and the familiar.
Those more knowledgable with the concept please chime in.
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Discussion Topic: Antifragile
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on June 4, 2022
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Antifragile is a constant for my business. I love everything calm and under control. But when you hit a major holiday and suddenly have 5-6x your normal business, it's stressful. But you put in extra time, do a lot of problem solving, prepare for contingencies and learn as you go. I don't look forward to the stress but I understand what has to be done. St Pat's Day, Memorial Day, Passover, July 4, Rosh Hashanah, Thanksgiving and Christmas are my major tests each year.
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Discussion Topic: Antifragile
Justin Hayes added to this discussion on June 4, 2022
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It sounds quite a bit like "perseverance"....
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Discussion Topic: Antifragile
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on June 4, 2022
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good explain Mike... but Sudaliev may not be seeking stress or maybe he is? he is accepting it and overcoming it though.
However a pure antifragilist SEEKS it. Thats a level above. Would be rare indeed. ..but i have an example of it, watch Naked & Afraid tomorrow night, those guys & gals ARE SEEKING stress. Some overcome, others do not.
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Discussion Topic: Antifragile
Justin Hayes added to this discussion on June 5, 2022
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Discussion Topic: Antifragile
Mike Stann added to this discussion on June 5, 2022
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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"good explain Mike... but Sudaliev may not be seeking stress or maybe he is? he is accepting it and overcoming it though.
However a pure antifragilist SEEKS it. Thats a level above. Would be rare indeed. ..but i have an example of it, watch Naked & Afraid tomorrow night, those guys & gals ARE SEEKING stress. Some overcome, others do not."
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Bob, I assumed he does seek the stress since he went up a weight to challenge Kyle. And then stayed there to challenge him again after his loss.
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Discussion Topic: Antifragile
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on June 6, 2022
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Quote from Justin Hayes's post:
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"It sounds quite a bit like "perseverance"...."
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I would say this is part of it. Perseverance would be what people call the end result. But antifragile is element that makes it possible to persevere. Antifragile is a mindset that understands that the pressure aides us towards improvement.
Similar to weight lifting…can’t bench press 225 today, but through a series of reps and added weight (increased incremental pressure), I will eventually push 225 off my chest. But getting under a bar that weighs 45lbs and never increasing the weight will not lead to an increase in strength; in this case pressing 225lbs.
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Discussion Topic: Antifragile
Rex Holman added to this discussion on June 6, 2022
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I think you need to pay homage to the guy that coined it and wrote a book with said title, Antifragile. I liked it so much that I read all his books.
Nassim Nicholas Taleb is my favorite author as he does'nt waste your time and explains in understandable terms. Plus, there is a lot of value in the concepts and stories that he discusses.
He is a mathematician that worked in the financial industry. In a nutshell, he figured out that the existing structure of economics and corporatism don't account for the outlier events and that is where the money is to be made. But that just scratches the surface. He is excellent at explaining real world phenomena that you know is there, but maybe can't quite grasp or understand without some help. Take for instance, a guy like Bob Rubin, former Secretary of the United Treasury, White Collar Un prosecutable criminal. No risk, all reward.
Antifragile was born out of his understanding the financial market. In essence, antifragility is creating a position for oneself in the case of chaos and uncertainty. It allows one to thrive in such circumstances. Most people are overwhelmed by chaos and uncertainty, however, if you understand what is happening and hedge yourself or are prepared for that eventuality, you are in effect antifragile. The tagline on the book is, Things that gain from disorder.
It could be transposed to differ sectors. i.e. Combat, Wrestling, Medicine, Law, Marriage.
I saw a guy take a stab at it on another forum with regard to wrestling. While admirable, it was just ok.
To be continued.
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Discussion Topic: Antifragile
Rex Holman added to this discussion on June 6, 2022
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So, fragile is something that breaks easily under stress.
Antifragile is the opposite.
I have a friend going through a divorce. It's weighing heavily on him. In effect, it is causing pain and suffering. An increase in pain and suffering causes fatigue and mental imbalance. These two variables make one weaker in the context of the daily grind. Being unsettled in ones' thoughts is a form of fragility. At its' root, the unsettlement is due to the loss and emotion attached to it. He paid into the relationship, attempted to reconcile and she wanted out.
So, entering into a relationship with someone that would see one fragile is kind of disgusting to me. You always want to surround yourself with people that make you better and build you up.
I left ASU because I became fragile. I had an assistant coach that had no interest in building me up. When a coach calls you a derogatory name albeit not to your face, that is tearing down.
Being antifragile in wrestling can be used in a lot of different contexts. Training, competing, and positions are the big three. I don't see it so much as gaining from disorder but rather enduring beyond what others can sustain.
The training we did at tOSU was heavy in terms of volume. But, in order to be part of the team, you had to fulfill that requisite. You had to endure the volume of training without breaking down physically or mentally. Plenty of wrestlers left the program as the training was designed for fatigue. Jim Jordan would always say the only fun thing about wrestling was winning. I took that to mean, that the amount of training it took to be successful, would take every bit of joy out of preparation. In the manner that it was undertaken, he was right.
Winning in competition at elite levels comes down to one position or sequence in a lot of instances. That one position or sequence is determined by a momentary loss of focus and consequently position. It might be the slightest dip in concentration below the baseline. But that weakest moment (fragile) was all it takes to derail a championship. That is why conditioning oneself to do the right actions regardless of fatigue/distraction is so necessary in all sport. Because the slimmest of margins separate the very best.
I look at positions as strong or weak. I could use fragile or antifragile, but everyone knows strong and weak. Ben Askren was great at creating positions of which other guys were uncertain how to grapple, which in effect gave him an advantage. If you have a positional advantage, you are antifragile. Mitch Clark had a positional advantage on top but was somewhat fragile on his feet. He worked to improve his neutral position and in doing so was able to score off his own attack, off an opponent's shot or stalemate. In doing so, he became antifragile. He went from 7th in Big Ten, RS year, to NCAA Runner up.
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Discussion Topic: Antifragile
Roe Fox added to this discussion on June 6, 2022
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You had me until the divorce aspect. I looked around at the antifragile perspective. It is one thing to seek out stress to improve oneself athletically. The constant application of change, stress or alternative training methods is a road to success in that arena. Perseverance, as Bob writes. My interpretation of the philosophy is the seeking of constant pressure or, at least, putting yourself in position to experience it.
It is quite another to invest your emotional well-being, future and love into another human being and think when that independent person decides to leave the relationship it is a learning exercise. All of us who wrestled wanted to be Olympic champions and innately realized that goal is obtained by a select few. Not obtaining that goal is not a traumatic event. We control the outcome subject to our own human limitations.
Many find the perfect person to share their life with, only to be involuntarily let down., even when the original promise seemed very real, likely more real than winning the NCAAs. That is not sought out stress but the application of some of the most pain anyone can feel. It is unexpected and unwanted. For many people who are normally “antifragile,” it is life altering.
“Philosophies” are great until life unexpectedly hits you in the face.
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Discussion Topic: Antifragile
Rex Holman added to this discussion on June 8, 2022
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Roe-
Not even sure what we are disagreeing on.
40% of marriages end in divorce. You take on a substantial risk when entering into this unique relationship. Some financial markets are much safer if you just place a bet on an index. Comparing the two is fair game in my book as everything can be classified in terms of risk and whether a strong position or fragile one. Matter of fact, I wish had understood the concepts better as an athlete. It would have helped me address positions, thoughts, and relationships. In doing so, you make better decisions based upon objective information rather than emotion.
When I was getting recruited in high school. J Robinson said you'll know when you find the right school as you will have a gut feeling as to the right place. Looking back, I'll say whatevs. (I got you Mark)
As an 18 year old, I lacked the maturity and life experience to make good decisions. Me being an adult now would tell that same me; don't be a dipshit, this is a business and those coaches are going to use you towards their ends. If you fail, someone else is going to step in. Most coaches have huge egos and provide lip service. They like you as long as you make them look good. So, find a university and program that gives you the best opportunity for success and after four years, be ready to move on. Take everything that is told to you with a grain of salt. Because, coaches are only speaking from their experience which may marginally apply to you. Be your own hero and writer of your own story. Forge away and eliminate those people that don't have your back. They are not worth time, energy or thought.
That's what I learned.
In order for marriage to work, you have to be in alignment, working towards the same goals, and supportive of one another.
Misalignment, different goals, unsupportive spouse. Complicate things with kids, money and stress and I'm surprised the percentage of divorce isn't higher.
BTW, my wife was'nt supportive of my MMA career. I dropped it as I was 37, juggling a fire service career, a parent. It goes way beyond this, but you can maybe understand that this was a very difficult time in my life. I'm still married, but it took a huge sacrifice on my part.
The Depp-Heard circus/sideshow is a telling tale of the amount of hatred that can be generated from such a union. I'd say they both were in a fragile position with careers and reputation being placed in the court of public opinion as well as the courthouse.
I have a lot more thoughts on the matter. However, I will end on the thought that I would much rather live a strong life in a strong way than be fragile and breakable. I will make necessary adjustments to my thoughts as I continue to learn, grow, fortify my strengths and eliminate my weaknesses.
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Discussion Topic: Antifragile
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on June 8, 2022
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Quote from Roe Fox's post:
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" Perseverance, as Bob writes. My interpretation of the philosophy is the seeking of constant pressure or, at least, putting yourself in position to experience it.
Many find the perfect person to share their life with, only to be involuntarily let down., even when the original promise seemed very real, likely more real than winning the NCAAs. That is not sought out stress but the application of some of the most pain anyone can feel. It is unexpected and unwanted. For many people who are normally “antifragile,” it is life altering.."
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it was Mr Neimannn who wrote of "perseverance...not me.
i think Roe hit the nail on the head re "divorce", it is NOT "sought out stress". Yes it can be helll but no one was seeking it when entering matrimony, LOL.
my interpretation is the person who is a pure antifragilist SEEKS stress. .... i have a pure example of it, watch Naked & Afraid, those guys & gals ARE SEEKING stress. Most have no idea of whats coming next in the jungle but know it will be very stressful, even to the breaking point.. Some overcome, many do not.
This eliminates "divorce" as a result of seeking stress. . Most are even very confident when entering marriage. It eliminates lot of actions, such as being recruited imo.
To me, antifragilism means the person is actually somewhat RECKLESS in choosing a course of action or a goal e.g recipients of combat medals.. Evil Kanevel? JH with SEALS good example..
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