|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU development criticism
Jared Ball added to this discussion on January 17, 2023
|
On last Friday’s FRL and discussion topic was brought up about Ohio State being the worst “big program” at developing guys. Many of us have speculated about this very topic on this site. Factually, OSU has been one of the top recruiting schools in the country. To my knowledge even Cael has acknowledged this. Askren went off topic on OSU’s bottom woes which are well documented. I do think they’ve shown modest improvement in this are and we’re largely interlinked with the fact that all three Jordan’s struggled to get away from elite top guys. But that’s what makes them elite…no one gets away.
My question is, do we have any data or evidence to support or refute this kind of statement? The Bucks have had two finalist (Sasso & Moore, omitting 2020) in the post Snyder era. There doesn’t appear to be a high probability of that changing this year. Is this a fair criticism.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU development criticism
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on January 17, 2023
|
Excellent question. What data would you like to see and to whom do you compare it? Should we look at ten years worth of recruits, see how they did, and then compare it to ten other top programs?
Or am I off track?
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU development criticism
Doug Gainous added to this discussion on January 17, 2023
|
I don't know what the stats say but I think it's obvious to everyone that Bucks have underperformed.
The 2018 NCAA runner-up in Cleveland still hurts. That team was stacked
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU development criticism
Mike Stann added to this discussion on January 17, 2023
|
|
Quote from Doug Gainous's post:
|
|
"I don't know what the stats say but I think it's obvious to everyone that Bucks have underperformed.
The 2018 NCAA runner-up in Cleveland still hurts. That team was stacked"
|
but PSU was also stacked. It really came down to who was better between Myles and Bo. IMO the difference between Penn St and OSU is that Cael develops champions where as OSU develops All-Americans. I also feel too much is being made of the results during covid. I can't imagine what a year off with no organized training did to many programs and wrestlers. Some handled it well I'm sure and others not so much. We just got maybe the best class ever. Let's see how they do. The Steibers, Jaggers, Pucillo, Heflin, Kyle, Myles, the Jordans, Tomasello, Moore, Pletcher all seem to develop just fine. What I'm really hearing here is that PSU is developing better than us. Let's be honest. In college wrestling the past 10 years has been PSU and everyone else. I really don't think we have done worse than Iowa, Minnesota, Oklahoma St. to name a few as to development.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU development criticism
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on January 17, 2023
|
|
Quote from Mike Stann's post:
|
|
"
but PSU was also stacked. It really came down to who was better between Myles and Bo. IMO the difference between Penn St and OSU is that Cael develops champions where as OSU develops All-Americans. I also feel too much is being made of the results during covid. I can't imagine what a year off with no organized training did to many programs and wrestlers. Some handled it well I'm sure and others not so much. We just got maybe the best class ever. Let's see how they do. The Steibers, Jaggers, Pucillo, Heflin, Kyle, Myles, the Jordans, Tomasello, Moore, Pletcher all seem to develop just fine. What I'm really hearing here is that PSU is developing better than us. Let's be honest. In college wrestling the past 10 years has been PSU and everyone else. I really don't think we have done worse than Iowa, Minnesota, Oklahoma St. to name a few as to development."
|
One thing about PSU that few mention when discussing "development" is that two(?) years ago, PSU had 5 champs. Who were the other 5 wrestlers in their line-up and what happened with them? I ask - truly - ignorant on what happened with them. Did they develop into AAs or NCs? (Seriously - I have NO CLUE of the answer here.) Or did they not? If not, what can be said then?
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU development criticism
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on January 17, 2023
|
when is the last time Penn St lost in the NCAA finals ??? its been a long time.
obviously whatever developing is occuring is enabling an already top kid or maybe just a very good one to keep improving to become a CHAMPION, in many cases. To break that Final Wall down.
The BIG Wall of doubt, fear, not enough guts, and failure (same as "She is so pretty, i want to ask her out but i fear rejection. She is too good for me, i cant do it, my palms are sweating, my throat is gasping. Better i settle for a bit less.")
like Gable's Iowa, if a wrestler has talent & is COACHABLE---and BUYS-IN--- he may well be a champion.
Because Cael like Gable KNOWS what it takes to get a top wrestler (NOT named Cael or Gable) to the next level and can impart that. ...it has to be MENTAL imo.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU development criticism
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on January 17, 2023
|
|
Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
|
|
"Because Cael like Gable KNOWS what it takes to get a top wrestler (NOT named Cael or Gable) to the next level and can impart that. ...it has to be MENTAL imo."
|
A lot mental (belief in themselves is top shelf) but their physical training is, IMHO, even more important. In most programs, you can count numerous guys that have been injured. It's not easy to name more than 2 guys in the past 10 from PSU that have been injured. IMO, their training style is ahead of everybody else.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU development criticism
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on January 18, 2023
|
Brady makes a good point and I'm going to invoke The Book of Rex and take it a step further.
Is your training addressing your weaknesses? If you're getting stuck in certain situations on a regular basis, what's being done to assist you in improving your outcomes?
When Bob speaks of confidence, I can assure you that nothing gives a competitor more of it than the knowledge that they feel good about their ability to complete their techniques and score. Conversely, if you're constantly getting stuck or losing positional battles, you question whether or not you can win.
No amount of sprinting, live wrestling, weight lifting, etc...will fix technique issues. In my opinion, this is what PSU does better than anyone else.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU development criticism
Mike Stann added to this discussion on January 18, 2023
|
|
Quote from Brady Hiatt's post:
|
|
"
|
Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
|
|
"Because Cael like Gable KNOWS what it takes to get a top wrestler (NOT named Cael or Gable) to the next level and can impart that. ...it has to be MENTAL imo."
|
A lot mental (belief in themselves is top shelf) but their physical training is, IMHO, even more important. In most programs, you can count numerous guys that have been injured. It's not easy to name more than 2 guys in the past 10 from PSU that have been injured. IMO, their training style is ahead of everybody else."
|
Almost every article about PSU wrestlers they talk about how
Fun practice is. I don’t hear that from other programs. It also seems among their stars that there isn’t any huge weight cuts. I remember Bo after his last match with Myles he said he hadn’t been worried since he had been there many times before in practice. This seems in line with what Rex has to say about training. IMO it’s not about more grit, wanting it more, or training harder it’s about keeping folks fresh, keep it interesting and working on improvement in your areas of weakness.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU development criticism
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on January 18, 2023
|
2018 in Cleveland a bitter one. ohio scored 2nd most pts ever for non--champ team, 130's to penn st 140;s.
wasnt just Myles pinned by Bo who was just better. KeShawwn dnp, Moore a 1 seed took 4th, pinned twice by kent st kid.
who else, was Dijulius on the great 2018 team?
--------------------------
re Cael, Jeff Buxton told me "I have been to Psu for a team training camp for USA. While I was there for a two week period I was able to see how their program operate in the off season; I have also been there during their season. I am impressed with their culture, work ethic, and commitment by the coaches to work with the team. Not only do they have capable coaches in teaching techniques but also the workout partners they have with the rtc.
So a great culture along with the ability to recruit from pa as well as landing the best #1 in several weight classes. If you don’t have the horses to pull the cart a tough way to win. But not only to they have the horses, they have workout partners and coaches to work with the athletes. Impressive coaching staff, great college athletes on college level as well as Gilman, Lee, zain, David , Gomez , dake, Snyder, Varner and ect "
Sent from my iPhone
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU development criticism
Jared Ball added to this discussion on January 19, 2023
|
I also agree that comparing the Bucks to PSU isn’t a real comparison, it isn’t for anyone. If you take Spencer Lee away from Iowa are they still that impressive over the last decade. Take Gable from Minnesota, Yanni from Cornell. Take Burroughs from Nebraska. Ohio State had two transcendent talents in a matter of a short period of time. Having a national champ is hard to do Id imagine. There are great coaches that have never had any. I do think the eroding of the rtc has mirrored the erosion in performance. Think about who was in that room to groom Snyder into what he became. Perhaps the room has just diminished.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU development criticism
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on January 19, 2023
|
I don’t think the comparison between OHST (or anyone for that matter) & PSU is unfair given that we are talking about development. This is an individual matter.
2022 - PSU
125: Hildebrandt - 1-2 at 2022 NCAAs
149: Bartlett - 1-2 at 2022 NCAAs
157: Berge - 2-2 at 2022 NCAAs
165: Manville - DNQ
285: Kirkvliet - 4th @ NCAAs
Those first four on the list…were they developed???
125: Hildebrant finished 4th @ NCAAs the year prior.
149: Bartlett - prepped at WyoSem, IRONMAN champ, 2x Powerade champ
157: Berge - lost one high school match (inj. def. BTW); 2x NQ
165: Manville - Greco World Team member in HS; Blair & WyoSem
The above examples would counter the notion that PSU develops all of their wrestlers and does so better than anyone else.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU development criticism
Ben Golden added to this discussion on January 19, 2023
|
I think OSU has done a good job developing talent historically--maybe not across the board, but PSU has had their flops too. Does PSU have more hits? Yes.
What's interesting to me... there seems to be a definite drop off of program (OSU + Ohio RTC) performance a few years ago. I don't have any answers for it, only questions. There has been a mass exodus at the Ohio RTC to the point that it's virtually non-existant. Kollin Moore and Dhesi are the only two left. I don't imagine Dhesi will compete for much longer, but that's pure speculation. I love Kollin, and am glad he's still there. Unfortunately he has a couple big roadblocks in front of him in Snyder and Cox. Dhesi competes for Canada. So unless Kollin jumps on the level of Snyder and Cox, it's difficult to see OSU having a World or Olympic team member in the foreseeable future. This from an organization that, if memory serves, once had 5 of the 7 spots on the world team!! How the mighty have fallen! Is this a result of lack of funding? Did funding the Jennings wrestling center mean there's minimal funding left for personnel? I don't want to hear anything about how there are more RTC's now, and guys stay at home. Plenty of other RTC's have recruited good talent to their programs. PSU is of course the de facto Olympic Training Center at this point, but CKWC has done well, ASU has done well, and others have pulled in some talent as well. Jordan Oliver has trained nearly everywhere but the Ohio RTC.
So a diminished RTC reduces the number of elite training partners away from the college wrestlers. The Buckeyes have stagnated in the last few years as well. While I think they used to do a good job developing talent, it seems they've taken a big step back in getting guys to that top level in the last few years. Hopefully this batch of freshmen are a catalyst for renewed greatness.
EDIT: Another thing I'll add... We should be benchmarking the program against PSU. This is Ohio State, the best collegiate athletic program in the country (world?). We are in a talent-rich area and have a good not-so-distant history. As fans, we should expect to be the best. Saying, "oh, PSU is just going to be better" is a losing mentality, a self-fulfilling prophecy. I certainly hope the coaching staff and athletes don't have that attitude. And of course we as fans are not in the room like the coaches and athletes, but the expectations fans have for the program should influence the expectations that the wrestling program and athletic program have for themselves.
|
Last edited by Ben Golden on January 19, 2023; edited 2 times in total
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU development criticism
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on January 19, 2023
|
|
Quote from Ben Golden's post:
|
|
"...I certainly hope the coaching staff and athletes don't have that attitude."
|
They do not.
I believe this season's best Buckeye line-up will occur next Friday night (1/27) against tsun.
I hope you have carved out time for this dual meet. I will be hosting a watch party for my HS team. Complete with Rooster's and maybe even cupcakes.
#GoBuckeyes
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU development criticism
Rex Holman added to this discussion on January 19, 2023
|
To develop those guys who have weaknesses or lacking a substantive skill takes a considerable amount of time and resources.
Some of these guys getting referenced for never achieving the same level of excellence as their junior career had weaknesses or lack of skills which prevented them from further high achievement at the next level that were never corrected.
The best coach to fix weaknesses or add skills is someone that understands the dynamics that person encounters and can bridge it for them while minimizing the time to do so.
From my own experience. I think Corey Morrison would have been an All American had I been his coach. He was so coachable, but he was struggling with the day to day of practice and school. Been there done that. I know it from having bled it. He had an offensive skill set that would score against All American type heavyweights. But, he wasn’t at his best when it counted.
As a general rule (for me), those wrestlers that are ranked top 20 something are within grasp of achieving All American Status.
Excellent coaching makes a huge difference for them.
Just as excellent coaching can make the difference between runner up and Champion.
I’m pretty sure PSU puts a majority of their resources into their top guys. Plus, everyone they actively recruit is closer to a complete wrestler. Some of the wrestlers they assessed as being closer to complete were’nt so.
Smaller schools that put a ton of resources into an individual that starts further down the curve can surpass the guy who is all world out of high school by virtue of the coach understanding the athlete and giving them the necessary attention detail. *adding skills and fixing weaknesses.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
