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Discussion Topic: What's less work and requires less skill? Fundraising or Developing wrestlers
Rex Holman added to this discussion on August 30, 2024
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The answer is pretty obvious to me. Developing champions takes so much time end energy to cultivate the right thoughts and practices that there is no comparison.
Fundraising requires salesmanship, enthusiasm and promises.
Two very different things.
I'm feeling a little salty about the Glazier situation. I knew this article existed, but I had to go four pages deep on a google search to find it.
https://www.hawkcentral.com/story/sports/college/iowa/wrestling/2018/07/06/zach-glazier-committing-iowa-wrestling-childhood-dream-come-true/762836002/
The thing that coaches get wrong is they lose their mind over wins and losses and forget the part about the human element of development and figuring out a best way to help a guy improve their game. Every match prior to the conference and NCAAs is preparation for those tournaments.
It's always about development and getting the best version of your athlete to compete. When so little separates a win from a loss, attention to detail matters. Glazier was deficient a detail or two. But totally correctable.
Anyway, this an area ripe for discussion and would enjoy discussing and hearing other's thoughts.
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Discussion Topic: What's less work and requires less skill? Fundraising or Developing wrestlers
J.P. Barner added to this discussion on August 30, 2024
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Do you suppose the Brands are feeling the pressure? Cael untouchable... Ryan and now Taylor out-recruiting them ..Michigan out bidding them on portal guys...suppose they've been told that they can spend all they need but they need to produce a top team or else?
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Discussion Topic: What's less work and requires less skill? Fundraising or Developing wrestlers
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on August 31, 2024
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I think that the Brands may have some out of control booster(s) and don't know what to do. They need the money but are stuck allowing these guys to make moves that the Brands wouldn't necessarily make. This is just conjecture on my part.
Rex--I agree that the way they've treated Glazier is lousy. Same for their 157 who showed potential. They're kicking these guys to the curb for one year rentals. Not good for culture or long term success.
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Discussion Topic: What's less work and requires less skill? Fundraising or Developing wrestlers
Roe Fox added to this discussion on August 31, 2024
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Quote from J.P. Barner's post:
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"Do you suppose the Brands are feeling the pressure? Cael untouchable... Ryan and now Taylor out-recruiting them ..Michigan out bidding them on portal guys...suppose they've been told that they can spend all they need but they need to produce a top team or else?"
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I think you’re right. They seem in a similar position as Ryan Day: here’s your money. Now win a title.
The other similarity: if they can’t get over the top, who do you turn to? They’re still great at what they do with no seaming better replacement (that is at least available now).
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Discussion Topic: What's less work and requires less skill? Fundraising or Developing wrestlers
Rex Holman added to this discussion on September 1, 2024
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Competing for a trophy.
2024 Team Scores
1 Penn State 172.5
2 Cornell 72.5
3 Michigan 71.0
4 Iowa State 68.5
5 Iowa 67.0
6 Arizona State 64.5
7 Virginia Tech 64.0
8 Ohio State 62.0
9 Nebraska 60.5
10 Oklahoma State 56.0
That one transfer wrestler who finishes high scores a lot of team points at NCAAs; which is literally the difference between a trophy and placing outside the top ten.
That you can pay a wrestler to come and be that athlete for a year of service emphasizes their importance in the big scheme of things.
That they are getting paid for their contribution to a finish and trophy.
I do like that athletes are getting paid for their worth.
You could do contracts based on points scored at NCAAs. It'd be a further rewards-based bonus contract and incentivize the wrestler to score as many team points as possible.
That some coaches don't get the most out of their athletes. That some do. That All American status is about preparation, match ups and skill.
That Cael gamed the system. Have yet to see a Nittany Lion wrestler test the free market. When they start throwing a milly around for a gun for hire, I suspect that loyalty will be tested.
Is it sustainable?
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Discussion Topic: What's less work and requires less skill? Fundraising or Developing wrestlers
Nick Lecklider added to this discussion on September 1, 2024
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The major programs are not losing guys to the portal because they are taking care of their wrestlers. At Penn state Kirkvliet, Bartlett, and Starroci all acted like they may be done with college wrestling and needed to be persuaded $$$$ to come back. Starrocci is reportedly making over 1.3 million dollars to come back this season alone.
Ohio state last year would have been a second place team if Sammy was not shot and they did that all with no kids in the portal.
On sept 5 they are meeting to try and finalize the house vs NCAA settlement. This is looking to be enforced in the fall of 2025. This will be the last year of huge paydays for wrestlers it looks like which should stop the volatility of the portal. The NCAA is eliminating the booster pay for play and all money earned must be fair market value. Any payment over 600 dollars must be approved by a third party. While wrestler may be able to get a free car for promoting a dealership or money for running camps and selling merchandise they will no longer be able to accept booster money just for being on a team.
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Discussion Topic: What's less work and requires less skill? Fundraising or Developing wrestlers
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on September 1, 2024
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Quote from Nick Lecklider's post:
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"The major programs are not losing guys to the portal because they are taking care of their wrestlers. At Penn state Kirkvliet, Bartlett, and Starroci all acted like they may be done with college wrestling and needed to be persuaded $$$$ to come back. Starrocci is reportedly making over 1.3 million dollars to come back this season alone.
Ohio state last year would have been a second place team if Sammy was not shot and they did that all with no kids in the portal.
On sept 5 they are meeting to try and finalize the house vs NCAA settlement. This is looking to be enforced in the fall of 2025. This will be the last year of huge paydays for wrestlers it looks like which should stop the volatility of the portal. The NCAA is eliminating the booster pay for play and all money earned must be fair market value. Any payment over 600 dollars must be approved by a third party. While wrestler may be able to get a free car for promoting a dealership or money for running camps and selling merchandise they will no longer be able to accept booster money just for being on a team."
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And if the NCAA takes this action, will it hold up in court?
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Discussion Topic: What's less work and requires less skill? Fundraising or Developing wrestlers
Nick Lecklider added to this discussion on September 1, 2024
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It may never get approved who knows , but they are attempting at least. I am all for kids getting paid but if they do need to control the booster pay for play or it could really ruin college wrestling. I like it when a non power 5 school can develop an NCAA champ and be competitive with the big guys.
Ben askren made a good point in an interview. He said if he wanted to go to college at Iowa he would go to another school first. The guys they are bringing in the portal are making much more than the ones they recruit. Ayala who was a national runner up is paid 100k and the portal guys are being paid 500k. So a guy like Ayala could have went to any other school, wrestled one year and then become a Hawkeye year two and made 5-times the money. It is causing drama in the Iowa room because the outsiders are making more than the loyal guys already in the room. If anything Ayala should be paid more than the portal guys. Iowa is making a mess out of this NIL situation.
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Discussion Topic: What's less work and requires less skill? Fundraising or Developing wrestlers
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on September 1, 2024
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I see a lot of numbers, like 100K or 500K, thrown around but I have to wonder where info like this comes from? I sincerely doubt that anyone outside of the administration of Iowa or Michigan or Oklahoma State has any idea as to what the real numbers are.
If accurate, or even close, I understand why the wrestlers like Ayala would be upset but, numbers are easy to post but not so easy to verify.
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Discussion Topic: What's less work and requires less skill? Fundraising or Developing wrestlers
Nick Lecklider added to this discussion on September 1, 2024
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Numbers at Iowa offering 500k seem pretty well known through the wrestling community. Iowa boards, Willie, Ben Askren, Pat Mineo, Flo all seem to have the same story. And saying 110 percent true. Doubt it’s not true. Remember not all wrestlers said yes to the money and disclosed what they offered. A booster tried to get Allirez and he said no to 500k to both iowa and Oklahoma state and Lilladahl and he said no. That’s just a couple I have heard about.
Starrocci when asked about the 1.3 million said you don’t even know the half of it which implies he may actually be making more.
If it was not true I think at some point the kids would probably deny those numbers since they are posted on nearly every site and message board. No one has denied those numbers.
https://www.instagram.com/benaskren/reel/C_TmTH8x0xm/
Link to Iowa and the drake ayala drama Ben Askren talks about.
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Discussion Topic: What's less work and requires less skill? Fundraising or Developing wrestlers
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on September 1, 2024
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Without trying to fan the flames, every one of the four "sources" you cite has a task of creating content. This can be done in many way and not all of that content is truthful or accurate.
You are also making the assumption that the wrestlers actually read the stupid things we write about them. IMO, there is zero reason for them to admit or deny the numbers.
As I said, only the schools, the family of the wrestlers, and maybe the IRS know for sure.
In the end, I don't care one way or another. However it is very difficult for me to believe that any school (even Iowa) is willing to spend 1/2 million dollars for a college wrestler.
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Discussion Topic: What's less work and requires less skill? Fundraising or Developing wrestlers
Nick Lecklider added to this discussion on September 2, 2024
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Willie Saylor of matscoits has been reporting Teemer and Parco to Iowa since April. He has said he has multiple sources. He claimed 500k since then also and that number is not just made up. He is very connected in the wrestling community. Matscouts motto is they are the most objective wrestling site. Unless it was a very good source and more than one I doubt he reported it.
As for Iowa paying 500k you are right, they are paying zero dollars. Bob Nicholls a booster is paying it all. He is taking it upon himself to contact these kids without being in the portal and then offering them big paydays. It would be a NCAA violation if Iowa did it. Reportedly Brands claimed he can not control what Bob does when Arizona state staff became upset with what was happening. The kids turning down the money are absolutely going to tell people what they were offered and it seems like that 500k is the common theme. Also I’m sure the Arizona state staff was made aware of the offer and given the opportunity to match it. People in the program are not going to keep the figure secret.
As for the kids not reading what people are saying that is very naive. For five months now this has been reported on every major wrestling site, Facebook, twitter, and instagram. Even if they have no phones they have heard every single thing. Teammates, coaches, and family and friends of these wrestlers have surely have all asked them these questions.
A reporter just asked Teemer yesterday what was the most important factor in his college decision. He chose the answer Nil. This is on his instagram
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Discussion Topic: What's less work and requires less skill? Fundraising or Developing wrestlers
Rex Holman added to this discussion on September 3, 2024
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Thanks Nick. I appreciate your insight and background information. I don't have the patience to read through everything out there.
Question if you have the answer. Are the Brands playing it is as out of their control? I have a hard time understanding how an alumnus can take control over the program regrading important team decisions.
I was a coach at OSU when they had a restricted earnings assistant. I made 12 and 2 in 1994. New hires in the corporate world at the time were making 30K. I didn't really understand my worth or how to monetize it. If I were to do over with hindsight, don't know that I would've coached at the collegiate level.
If NIL and antitrust litigation hadn't been levied on the NCAA, athletes would still be second class citizens. As for fair market value. To me, that's for the market to decide. Not some judge.
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Discussion Topic: What's less work and requires less skill? Fundraising or Developing wrestlers
Nick Lecklider added to this discussion on September 4, 2024
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The NCAA nil is still in its infancy stages and it is like the Wild West out there right now. The NCAA is attempting to make some sort of rules and stipulations. They are trying to eliminate pay for play which is what these boosters are doing at the moment. So what is the difference between play for play and nil? Perhaps the distinction is that NIL arrangements require the student-athlete to engage in some kind of promotional activity in exchange for compensation. Therefore, the student-athlete is compensated (arguably) not for his enrollment at a particular school or for his success on the field (both of which would constitute impermissible “pay-for-play”), but for the promotional activity in which he has engaged—be it endorsing a product on social media, appearing at a promotional event, or signing memorabilia. That is where a third party comes in and makes sure these events and autographs are fair market value( meaning the athlete can’t be overpaid to cover up pay for play). The schools can opt in to share up to 22 percent of revenue with the athletes I believe , in which Ohio state says they will opt in to the max. This will almost certainly go only to the football and basketball players however as they are the only profitable sports. The wrestling team revenue was 1.5 million last years and its expenses were 2.8 million last year.
There are two huge boosters that are changing the landscape of college wrestling. Brian Nicholls of Iowa and Chad Richison of Oklahoma state. They are driving up these numbers of nil pay against each other as they have been in on the same kids on a few occasions.
Chad Richison is the paycom ceo and worth billions. He is an alum of central Oklahoma and has donated over 25 million to them and their football stadium is named after him. He has a passion for wrestling and has given to many wrestling organizations. He now has seemed to take over the Oklahoma State program completely. He was the one who targeted and that went all in to get David Taylor. Chad and the atheletc director flew in Chad’s private jet to Happy Valley and gave him an offer he couldn’t refuse. Made David the highest paid coach in wrestler over Cael (1.1 million that increases annually) and promised to fund Olympic level athletes for the unforeseeable future. Hamiti seemed to know he was going to Oklahoma state before he even left Kansas City as he literally went immediately into the portal and said do not contact which speculates communication was established while he was at Wisconsin.
The second player in the game is Bob Nicholls of Iowa. Bob is a lifetime Iowa diehard wrestling fan and pledged 7 million dollars to the new wrestling room which was named after him. He is just straight contacting people who are not in the portal and offering them outrageous amounts to come to Iowa. I was wondering how can Buchanan, Parco, and Teemer go to Iowa when the portal is closed? The answer is that if the portal is closed they can walk on to a team and not receive scholarship money. Paying your way isn’t too bad however when you get a 500k paycheck. Brand is claiming he has no control over Bob but I agree by allowing them to join your team you do have control. Iowa would have been a borderline top ten team this year without these three and Brands could have been on hot seat after a season like that. Now they are looking at a possible runner up trophy. Iowa has produced exactly one AA (Ayala) in the last five recruiting classes. Personally if I were Iowa I would move on from Brands but Bob is going to end up saving his job as he will keep the roster towards the top.
Michigan I don’t have too much of a problem with. They are at least waiting for kids to actually jump in the portal before securing them. They also aren’t throwing anywhere near the money these other two are. They won’t be beating out Oklahoma state and Iowa if it comes down to NIL.
I really hope for the future of college wrestling some sort of changes are made. I am all about kids making money but I think this will destroy smaller programs when we all want the sport to grow. The legal process I’m sure won’t be easy however and may take forever to resolve.
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Discussion Topic: What's less work and requires less skill? Fundraising or Developing wrestlers
Brian Mathews added to this discussion on September 5, 2024
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Brands is perfectly capable of turning down these offers. To do so, however, would be risking his job.
Tom's seat isn't too hot, but it has been slowly warming. He needs Nicolls money. Without it he stands to lose quite a bit himself.
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