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Discussion Topic: What kind of credential is winning Junior High State?
Steve Lester added to this discussion on April 15, 2008
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This past year saw the tenth anniversary of Ohio's junior high state championship. Felipe Martinez became Ohio's 6th three-time champion since it's inception. One wrestler, Huston Evans, has a chance to become a three-timer next year, and one wrestler won his first as a sixth grader.
At the high school level Ohio's wrestling talent is divied up into three divisions. Yet for junior high there is only one champ for all of the statewide participants.
Of Ohio's 14 four-time high school champs, only two, Lance Palmer and Jameson, were in the time frame that afforded the opportunity to go for three middle school titles. Neither did it, both finishing as two time state champs.
However next year we will see two wrestlers that will go for the "seven year" sweep, Collin Palmer and David Taylor. A year and two later Logan Stieber (five down and two to go) and then Chris Phillips (four down and three to go) are on track.
Of the 14 two-time junior high champs, 11 won titles at the next level, with two still having the opportunity.
Of course there are no guarantees as the travails of the one three-timer have been detailed elsewhere.
So which is tougher? Winning 3 junior high titles in Ohio or four high school titles? (You knew that question was coming).
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Discussion Topic: What kind of credential is winning Junior High State?
Dan Ransick added to this discussion on April 15, 2008
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I would say that winning three straight junior high titles would be tougher. You are seeing every tough kid in the state at that from grades 6-8. The ability to win three of these titles is a truly remarkable accomplishment as well as being a four time state champion.
In my opinion it boils down to the fact that there is only one division for JRHSC compared to three on the high school level.
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Discussion Topic: What kind of credential is winning Junior High State?
Scott Shaw added to this discussion on April 15, 2008
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I think that you are comparing apples to oranges. They are both tough accomplishments. To say one is tougher than the other, particularly when one is accomplished at such a young age, well, let me just ask when it will end? Next we will be talking about the kid from Whateverville that won 4 grade school state titles then 3 middle school state titles and now looks to be an 11x State Champ. None of which translates into guaranteed collegiate success.
The truth of the matter is this, no Middle School title compares to that of a High School State Championship, period! All of the, "you see every tough wrestler in the state" talk is just that, talk. Did Dean Heil wrestle this year? He is arguably the toughest junior high wrestler in the state and he didn't wrestle, so until they are in high school and kids wrestle with injuries, have to worry about grades, and at some schools, just making the line-up, then the High School tournament is still a much, much bigger accomplishment.
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Discussion Topic: What kind of credential is winning Junior High State?
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on April 15, 2008
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Scott...I'm pretty sure Whateverville doesn't have a team yet. I don't think a kid will be winning a wrestling state championship for them any time soon.
As for the topic at hand...I'd say a championship at either level, to me, is impressive. The ability to win 7 is AMAZING!!! I would think that a SC early would set the ground work for others...however, not winning one does not disqualify you for a later SC.
In the end, I like the event. I like the exposure kids receive when at this event.
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Discussion Topic: What kind of credential is winning Junior High State?
Scott Shaw added to this discussion on April 15, 2008
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Mark, let me tell you, Whateverville is the Monroeville of tomorrow my friend.
I agree that both events are great for the sport in Ohio and that winning either one is a great accomplishment. I just think that we overemphasize the middle school accomplishments of athletes. A quick story if I may. I teach at Teays Valley Middle School and our 7th grade football team finished 7-0 this season. A great accomplishment for those kids, the coaches, and the school. It was exciting watching the celebration after that last game, however, two weeks prior to that last game, a parent of one of the players stated that our 7th grade team was the Ohio State Buckeyes of middle school football. She said this partly due to her excitement for her son and his friends, but, she said it in all seriousness. They were an unstoppable machine full of future DI stars and NFL Hall of Famers. This group of kids may go on to huge things in high school and I truly hope they do, but kids mature at different rates and they may end up like most of the TVHS football teams, average.
So let us celebrate the accomplishments of all of our Ohio youth, but please don't compare a middle school anything, to a high school something.
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Discussion Topic: What kind of credential is winning Junior High State?
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on April 15, 2008
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Amazing. Our Junior High school has a couple uof "Undefeated" banners on the wall. But it took until last year for our football team to end the near 20-year drought of making the playoffs.
Again, Mr. Shaw...I bow in awe of you rsuperior knowledge! (And partly to your location!)
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Discussion Topic: What kind of credential is winning Junior High State?
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on April 15, 2008
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I don't know which one is a greater accomplishment, but I will say this. The Junior High State Tourney has become the single greatest indicator of high school success for young wrestlers. Just look back through those brackets, they're a who's who of eventual high school stars. And not just the champs, the placers and qualifiers as well. Think about last year's super-froshes: Phillips, Stieber, Tessari, Utley, DiJulius, Brascetta, Meyer, Matt Stevens, Shivener, I'm sure I'm leaving several out. We knew all those names coming in because of their success at the Junior high Tourney. The days of the surprise stud freshman are over. Like someone said above, there's no guarantee, but dominance at the junior high State Tourney is as close to a guarantee of success at the high school level as I can think of. There's clearly a much greater correlation between junior high and high school then there is between high school and college.
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Discussion Topic: What kind of credential is winning Junior High State?
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on April 15, 2008
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tsk, tsk...SO much hatred and anger in a post like that. <shifty>
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Discussion Topic: What kind of credential is winning Junior High State?
Ken Jameson added to this discussion on April 15, 2008
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Along with only one division, there is no academic eligibility requirement. That means that "the badboy who beat up the principal and had straight F's but trains with Alexander Karelin" can still compete. I don't know that it has ever happened but it can.
And for the record... Tony never won the Junior High State Championship. Even before he won his freshman year I would say that Jr. High is tougher to win, and I would say the same now.
However I would say to the Junior High State Champ favorite who comes up short... keep training, anything is possible!
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Discussion Topic: What kind of credential is winning Junior High State?
Steve Lester added to this discussion on April 15, 2008
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Thanks for the correction Mr. Jameson. Not sure how I made that error, a rather big one, other than being in too much of a hurry.
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Discussion Topic: What kind of credential is winning Junior High State?
Steve Lester added to this discussion on April 15, 2008
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Mr. Shaw,
I have some sympathy for your reservations about this entire topic being discussed. I hesitated to start this due to identical thoughts re: grade school states and the concept of an 11x champ. That thought was distasteful. Among other things, it seems to invite added pressure that one could argue should not exist for youngsters.
Yet, there is a website for junior high states which not only gives this year's results but historical data of past champs INCLUDING their eventual high school of attendance and a full record of their eventual high school state placings! It's an open invitation for study, comparison, and resulting discussion (where will they go, how will they do, what schools are getting the "studs", etc.?).
So it's out there. It could be argued that it shouldn't be.
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Discussion Topic: What kind of credential is winning Junior High State?
Scott Nicola added to this discussion on April 15, 2008
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Wasn't Jaggers a JH State CHamp?
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Discussion Topic: What kind of credential is winning Junior High State?
Nicholas Sestito added to this discussion on April 15, 2008
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Two time JH champion in addition to the 4 state titles and more recently that NCAA title <cool>
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Discussion Topic: What kind of credential is winning Junior High State?
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on April 16, 2008
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Discussion Topic: What kind of credential is winning Junior High State?
Shawn Andrews added to this discussion on April 16, 2008
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Scott, I don't know how TV could have all of the STARS of tomorrow, because they are all @ Marysville Middle School. <smile> I used to coach middle school football and got out of it for that reason. I had several parents tell me they knew their child was going to be in the NFL some day and their child's teachers were just trying to squash is dreams by failing him in Math.
I know wrestling parents expectation can be just has high but there just seems to be something fundementally crazed about middle school football parents.
As far as the JHS goes, I think it is a great event, which builds up our sport, but as other said I don't think you can say one is a greater achievment than the other one.
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